If he was, it would make no sense why Davis shot him. But in the scene where the pimp gets shot, the closeup is of a man with graying hair, and it appears to be McCoy. Was McCoy a vigilante on his own?
shareI thought that the pimp-killer was the David Soul character. McCoy was just an embittered cop - not a killer.
shareNo way! Officer Davis (Soul) had bright blonde hair. The pimp killer had dark hair with lots of gray in it. You'd have to look at the closeup shots where the only thing hiding his identity is the helmet and aviator glasses.
shareThat's strange because the hair was hard to see because of the helmet i will take a closer look using the dvd zoom feature,really i thought it was grimes doing the ricca and pimp killings,there were four of them davis sweet grimes and red asctan and remember in the end when briggs says to harry your about to become extinct get off at the next exit you see the motorcycle cop behind him that was grimes he was doing the killings in the beginning i believe charlie mcoy had nothing to do with it.
shareI have seen Magnum Force many times and consider the best of the Dirty Harry series. I have always wondered if Charlie McCoy was a vigilante. In the opening scene when Ricca and his guys are leaving the courthouse; we see one of the vigilante cops watching the news coverage of the couthouse as he gets dressed and leaves his apartment. The portrait of the police officer next to the TV looks a lot like Charlie McCoy. Also, the voice of the police officer in all the killings seems to be of an older man, not one of the rookies.
Your observation of the gray hair in the pimp scene is great. I hadn't noticed.
I feel he was one of the killers and he was "sacrificed" much in the same way Sweet was sacrificed. He was probably killed because of his unstable nature that we see and hear of from his wife. Briggs and the others considered him a liability to the covert natutre of the unit.
Glad to hear others have thought the same. I wish there was a definitive answer, maybe from someone like John Milius (screenplay). Have a great one!
I haven't seen this movie in a while, but I remember Harry telling his partner that Sweet was sacrificed. Was there ever a hint as to why Sweet was sacrificed, rather than another officer.?
shareSweet was sacrificed because the intent of tipping off Palancio(the mobster they went to arrest) was to get Callahan killed. He was getting too close to their operation. It wasn't deliberate that Sweet would be killed, but considered an acceptable loss to get Callahan.
shareI don't think he was a vigilante. He was embittered, but not enough to be a vigilante. I really think he is a red herring, to draw the viewers attention away from the real vigilantes. I just watched it again tonight, and the voices of the officers who do the killings and Charlie McCoy are nowhere near to matching.
shareYou're right about the voice, but it doesn't match the rookie cops either. Nor does the physical appearance. We may never know!
shareMy feeling on this, IS, I think the Leutenant(Hal Holbrook) asked him to join up and he turned him down, hence he was killed.
I'd rather go hunting with Dick Cheney, than driving with Ted Kennedy
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Here is how I viewed it
in the beginning, it could've been McCoy, but it might've been one of the rookie cops who just looked up to McCoy cuz they admired him. I really don't know.
I always thought:
the first killing of the mobsters in the car was Astrachan
the second killing of the pimp was Sweet
the third killing in the penthouse was Davis
the fourth killing would be Grimes, but he was hit with Brigg's car, thus Davis and Astrachan came
Or it is possible that McCoy did the first two killings and then Davis got him.
"I'm your huckleberry."-Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday in Tombstone
My view is this:
McCoy was part of the Magnum Force. He probably started it with Briggs who then later recruited the rookies. However, because he obviously wasn't keeping his cool and was becoming dangerous and unpredictable, thus becoming a threat to the operation, they decided to have him offed.
So that makes McCoy doing the first two killings and he was going to do the killing in the penthouse, but Briggs arranged it for Davis to get in there before McCoy did. Then after doing the job, he would kill McCoy.
"I'm your huckleberry."-Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday in Tombstone
McCoy was a red herring. If a voice or face is too recognisable at the beginning of a movie, the mystery is lost. You are supposed to believe that it's McCoy.
If you think about it, McCoy is seen by the stakeout cops but Davis isn't: McCoy has a spill on his bike and goes into the building to clean himself up. Later, he greets Davis (at a point where you might still think he's the killer) - and BLAM! He's dead and the whole audience goes "WTF????"
I have always been of the opinion that McCoy is the killer in the opening segment, the voice is just too deep or rough to be any of the young rookies, and I disagree & think that is his picture seen in the little apartment (which I believe his wife later says he is living in: a trailer). When he enters the parking garage of the building before Davis kills him he smiles in recognition before Davis shoots him.
If he had not been a member of the Magnum Force then his murder also would not have made sense in terms of the plot dynamic of the team being a sort of closed or secret society. If Davis had merely shot him because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time then he would have been a "sacrifice". But if he was in on the plot his murder becomes a necessary evil to help divert attention away from the police themselves as committing the vigilante killings.
I don't know for sure though, we would have to perhaps see a shooting script to know exactly who it is on the motorcycle at the beginning, yet even that may not state conclusively who it was. My feeling has always been that it was McCoy, the placement of the picture in those opening scenes is too deliberate, those look like the "quarters" of an older person too rather than one of the young rookies, who according to Early "do everything together" and I would imagine lived as roommates in some sort of communal setting. By comparison that looks like some old guy's trailer apartment.
"I have always been of the opinion that McCoy is the killer in the opening segment, the voice is just too deep or rough to be any of the young rookies, and I disagree & think that is his picture seen in the little apartment (which I believe his wife later says he is living in: a trailer). When he enters the parking garage of the building before Davis kills him he smiles in recognition before Davis shoots him."
Probably the reason McCoy smiles recognition is because they are both cops and work in the same division with one another, so obviously they would know one another. My take is I don't think McCoy is a part of it because he is never metioned or even suspected, and if he was it would have been brought out somewhere. Either his wife would have told Harry her suspicions of him being involved in something strange which would have tipped Harry off later that McCoy was knocked off because he was in danger of caving in. And surley Briggs
would have smugly informed Harry during the car ride that McCoy was at one time involved and why he had to be done away with. No, but it seems that McCoy was in the wrong place at the wrong time and lost his life for it because he would have known Davis was responsible for the killing at the penthouse.
The "Rookies" also had extensive special armed forced training which would explain why they were so dedicated in wanting to execute criminals who were bringing down america, and Briggs even told Harry that "there were plenty more where they came from". So to me McCoy just doesn't fit the part.
I never believed that Charlie McCoy was one of the vigilantes. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and Davis murdered him.
When Digorgio and the other detective are on the stakeout they see Charlie have an accident with a car. When Davis shoots the people in the apartment, Charlie probably heard or saw something too and he responded, he was closer than the cops on the stakeout, so obvioulsy he got in the garage first. And also remember that Davis is surprised to see him.
But it is good the way the film makers lead the audience to believe that it is Charlie through the beginning of the movie and we're surprised to see Davis take off that helmet. That's a scene I've never forgotten seeing the first time, which was many years ago.
I'm pretty certain Mccoy was'nt part of the death squad. If he was, Clint's argument with Briggs near the end would have collapsed:
Briggs: "There isn't one man we've killed who did'nt have it coming to him."
Callahan: "Yes there is, Charlie Mccoy."
I'm sure if he was a sacrifice like Sweet, Briggs would have said so right there to justify their actions.
That's right, more proof that Charlie was not a member of Briggs' squad.
shareAlthough after watching the movie again, the voice of the cop that done the Ricca killings did not sound anything like the rookie cops. And the cop that killed the pimp had gray hair coming out of his helmet, but the coroner confirmed to Harry that Sweet was the first on that scene.
I really think this was a ploy by the director to confuse everybody from thinking the obvious that the "rookies" were the only ones involved, but in all reality they were probably the only ones.
It would have been great if the DVD had a commentary from either the director or even better Clint himself to clear up some of these things.
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I agree with c-huddleston. McCoy was a red herring, just to make us think he was a killer.
-- Never do anything halfway !
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My view is this:
McCoy was part of the Magnum Force. He probably started it with Briggs who then later recruited the rookies. However, because he obviously wasn't keeping his cool and was becoming dangerous and unpredictable, thus becoming a threat to the operation, they decided to have him offed. (written by mdh1875) Good analogy .Now that post definitely described that whole bit concerning Charlie Mc Coy.Ive seen this movie god knows how many times and was always skeptical about what was up with Mc Coy and why Davis silenced him.
I dont necessarily BELIEVE this but I wanna put it out there anyway:
McCoy could be part of the vigilante force. He was shown in the beginning and then right after that, Ricca was killed. Beside that, he seemed to be being set up way too easily. Not to mention he showed up at Guzman's a little too quickly, without his sirens on, and very quietly. Plus he saw Davis there and smiled at him, didnt ask what he was doing or anything. And Davis just shot him, as if he was ready for it.
i think so. why would a traffic bike cop like him be at that bldg. (where he was killed)?
I'm with the Mattress Police. There are no tags on these mattresses.
He turned in there to check out his bike after the fender-bender.
"I mean, really, how many times will you look under Jabba's manboobs?"
A bit of fun trivia: The guy who played Ricca's attorney, Maurice Argent, was my English Teacher in High School....
shareIt's an interesting question:
He had to have been part of it. Here are some other clues:
1. At the beginning, he's the one who is watching the court verdict on TV and leaves to do the first killing.
2. He would have been at the shootout range at the same time as the rookies.
3. He deliberately took a spill on his bike to distract the stakeout cops.
I was confused about that too, why Davis killed him.
The way I viewed it was Charlie killed everyone up until Davis killed him. The physical appearance of the killer for every murder up to that point was that of Charlie. It doesn't fit any of the rookies at all, there's no way it was any of them.
The cop that killed Ricca and the Pimp was..... Dar Robinson LOL!
The motorcyclist was bigger than the rookie cops on both the Ricca and Pimp sequences. In addition you can see the grey hair when he's talking to the Pimp.
So either it's a simple "oops" when they filmed it.
Or its Briggs dressed as a motorcycle cop. (But the voice doesn't seem to fit)
Or Charlie McCoy was a part of the group, he was getting too unstable (perhaps his desire for revenge disappeared after killing the pimp).
The sequence at Guzman's apartment makes a little more sense that Charlie was "set up". It's possible that Davis was ordered to silence an informer in the group, and was surprised it was McCoy. After all what are the odds he was driving by during a stakeout? Was McCoy supposed to be a diversion?
He could easily be a red herring, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to say had he not been killed he would have been investigated. Maybe Briggs knew about how unstable McCoy was, and he was the perfect patsy to be sacrificed.
Callahan certainly was suspicious of McCoy, and maybe Briggs figured that might confuse Callahan's investigation.
Great speculation though.
Has anyone thought this.
Briggs stated that there were heaps of other cops to recruit.
Could the older killer have been someone not known who doesnt get killed?
Who gets away with it?
A little out there... but what the hey.
Eat the Neocons.
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I think it's very clear that he wasn't part of the vigilantes, he was set up in the plot as a red herring for Harry and just stumbled across the Guzman murder and was killed as a result. I always took it that Sweet killed the pimp, Grimes killed Ricca, Astrachan killed the pool party and Davis killed Guzman.
shareViewers shouldn't be thrown off by the vigilante officers' voices; I think that their voices used during the murder scenes were dubbed to fool the viewers.
Also, it's implied that Charlie McCoy did the mobsters' murders. It was his portrait on the dresser. (Although it could have been a different officer in the murder scene that followed.)