So Big John listens to his "inner voice" and deduces that Crazy Willie killed Frank. Willie confesses. But I'm not convinced. Willie seems to me just too darn, er, crazy to rig up the elaborate fake suicide for Frank. And he certainly seems too manic to do so while coolly frying a pan of pork chops as the opening sequence of the film details. So did the freaks do it? And is Harve right all along?
shareI'm confused too. Zipper says "it was just lying there" refering to the money.
shareTwo points that both crossed my mind as the credits were rolling, perhaps it was zipper who killed frank maybe that would explain why he went a little crazy even before winterbottom noticed the expensive bike. If thats not the case then I guess you could possibly put it down to inconsistencies in the plot and characters.
shareJust watched the movie for the first time and I'm convinced that 'Zipper' did it... crazy Willie is a useful decoy but he's too unhinged.
shareWhat is it that convinces you!?
Zipper says the money "was just lying there" - this surely would be rather glib if he'd also killed the man!!
It aint like it used to be, but it'll do
[deleted]
I don't think we're meant to know who killed Frank. My view is that the murder was introduced to give Big John an opportunity to prove himself as worthy detective material. The murder could've been replaced with a bank robbery, a kidnapping...anything really. James Guercio's commentary makes it clear that his intention was to tell the story of the "average man," all his struggles and dreams and such. Big John's struggle was to transcend his mundane existence, to rise above his commonness and become somebody that other people looked up to. The murder scene he stumbled upon gave him that chance, but rather than objectively looking at the facts and drawing conclusions from them, Big John twisted the facts to make them coincide with what he wished had happened. At first, despite having little evidence to go on that a murder was committed (other than the shotgun wound being in the chest and not the head), he convinced himself that a murder had happened, because otherwise he wouldn't have a murder case to solve and thereby prove to his superiors that he could hack it as a detective. If he was indeed correct that a murder had been committed then it was really just luck. He would've presumed a murder occurred whatever the evidence.
So, Big John gets his break thanks to Harve letting him to team up on the investigation. Harve later wounds Big John's pride by ripping into him for sleeping with his girl. This begins Big John's decension back to his boring old life. In order to get back at Harve, I think Big John sought out somebody (Big Willie) who he could claim did the murder, just to make Harve look bad for badgering innocent hippies. So, did Big John really have a reason to believe that Willie killed Frank? Was it really as simple as BJ says, that it was a murder born of Willie's loneliness and jealousy? I don't think so. This was Big John projecting himself onto Willie, in my opinion. Big John was the lonely and jealous one, and in order to transcend himself he had to solve this case one way or the other, even if he had to make things up to do it. I'm not saying that Big John did this consciously. I think, rather, that he convinced himself that Willie murdered Frank, simply because it was so important for him to feel important and let the police force (and the world) know that he was right, they were wrong, and that he was an underestimated, unappreciated hero. This is the story of the "average man" that Guercio speaks of, a man dying to be noticed for making a difference.
ccr1613, i agree with much of your analysis of the film, but i could not disagree more with your assesment of blake's character and the willie situation. while true, John was lonely, there was nothing in the slightest that suggested jealousy. Were he truly jealous and greedy, he never would have given up the detective gig. he became disillusioned with "the system" and gave up his (tainted) dream of being a detective in order to do the right thing. all of the principle characters in the film were lonely; remember the line at the close of the concert: "loneliness will kill a man deader than a .357 magnum".... this quote applied to all the main characters and was metaphorical for wintergreen's role as the one true and honest person in a dirty, corrupt world; zipper dreamed of owning the custom electra glide (in blue) he subsequently bought with the drug money he pilfered not concerned with the heavy moral price associated with the acquisition of his dream. so, with this is mind, it is likely that crazy willie WAS driven insane with jealousy and loneliness and that is why he chose to kill, which would explain why his character was hysterical and had to be confined (it is hinted that he was a little odd before, but the marked change in behavior seemed a drastic departure from previous behavior... after all, it is implied that while a hermit, he was self-sufficient and didnt normally run around in a frenzy in the desert like when john and zipper picked him up). so, to make a long story short, willie probably did kill his friend, but it can never be known for sure.
share
Hello silverwrestler1000 -- I appreciate your thoughtful analysis, even if we're in disagreement on that particular point you raise. I do believe that Blake's Big John was propped up as an honest man in a corrupt system, but I also think that he had flaws that the film exposed in a very subtle way. Namely, we're never really sure if Willie committed the murder, and the very ambiguity of this suggests that Big John might have subconsciously convinced himself that Willie did it, just so that he could pinpoint somebody specific and use this as leverage in making his mark on the case. There were probably many reasons for this. The most important among them, I believe, was his desire to convince himself that he could cut it as a big-time detective and, perhaps, to show up Harve, who had embarrassed him. In any case, I don't think we're meant to know who the murderer really was, and that we're meant to ruminate on all the character flaws that went into Big John's and Harve's conclusions as to who actually did it. I think where we disagree regards the magnitude of Big John's main character flaws (ego and a desire to make a mark, whatever the truth), which I believe were more substantial and perhaps led him to convincing himself of something that might not have been true (or in any case had flimsy supporting evidence).
Both of your comments are brilliant.. it's great to see such insightfulness on this film. I have always felt it was Willie committed the murder and Zipper got to the cabin later and found the money which "was just lying there" (as he tells Wintergreen later). Willie committed the murder, in my opinion, because the dead man was his only friend and he felt betrayed because his friend was now hanging out with the hippies and having more fun with them instead. It was jealousy and not motivated by money or drugs on his part. That's why Willie almost forgot about the money until he was questioned later by Harve and Big John.
shareI just saw this on TCM last night, wow, what a great underground flick. Big John's major and ultimately fatal flaw was that he put himself ahead of his trade. He was so hell bent on getting ahead and getting the promotion to detective that he forgot what got him to the brink of his possibly realized potential and it destroyed him. It was to me a metaphor for the corruption in us all once we see we can achieve something great, something better and we let it undo us which we saw in the Enron fiasco and other scandals in all facets of life feom politics to entertainment to sports. This was such a great little sumbolic film and yet my old VHS tape ran out...damn it, only got 70% recorded.
I also think most of the character and the setting itself were in a surreal and bizarre way representative of certain things, from the old John Ford setting to the sidekick cops, to the hippie who gets his revenge. The setting was like an anthem to pay tribute to the a time long gone but the beauty of the time was still present in a much more volatile world. It was a tribute and a put down all in one. The cops were like well meaning but somewhat immoral old west sheriffs that like Wyatt Earp go too far to further there cause-and like with Earp they pay a heavy price.
As for that hippie, well he is to me the victim we all are at one time or another who exacts a justice for being mis-treated earlier which we all wish we could do but have the restraint not to.
Damn wish I could buy this.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with everybody. Crazy Willie couldn't have done it. He wasn't together enough, he wasn't that kind of crazy, he wouldn't have thought ahead to getting caught, and anger and jealousy would be a messy, spontaneous crime of passion. Willie is there to prove that the inmates are running the asylum, that the "establishment" is much more dangerous than so-called "crazy people." Willie went crazy because he saw the world for what it is, and that made him the only one qualified to solve the crime. He warned Frank about the hippies. As a plot device, for the film to work, he has to be right about who killed Frank. But he was wrong about where the money went.
Wintergreen had to be drawn less than brilliant so he could also be incredibly naive. He wanted to be a detective because he thought it was the ultimate in justice, and he thought he understood human nature. Right and wrong were black and white for him. He thought Willie did it because the concept of corruption didn't exist for him yet. In a sane world, you'd have to be crazy to commit murder, right? Then he thought Zipper did it, because until the moment Zipper died it was still all black and white for him.
Harve didn't do it, and neither did Zipper. Wasn't Frank killed with a .22 and then shot with a shotgun? Police don't carry .22s, and they wouldn't have shot him in the chest, even Big John knew that. And Zipper didn't confess to murder, he confessed to stealing the money. He found Frank's body first, the money "was just lying there;" he took it and didn't tell anybody about Frank.
The killer was the hippie who killed Wintergreen -- with the same shotgun -- which is why he was ready to kill any cop who pulled them over. He's even identified as "Killer" in the credits, and not just because he killed Big John. Incidentally, Killer was played by Terry Kath, the Chicago guitarist who wrote and performed "Tell Me" at the end of the film. Unbelieveable irony, considering how Terry died.
Big John was murdered, but he was not destroyed. He remained uncorrupted to the end. He chose to remain a motorcycle cop because he didn't want to become a Harve, a "bad guy," and the motorcyle he once hated became his symbol of justice (Zipper stole to buy one; hence, justice could be "bought.") If Wintergreen had been completely disillusioned, he wouldn't have remained a cop. Instead, his eyes were opened about corruption and the grey areas between right and wrong, which is what allowed him to give the hippie a pass the second time. He was MUCH happier in his job at the end than at the beginning. He was a good man with a good heart, which must have made him feel lonely, indeed. How or why it got him killed would make another good debate.
I agree with Sandym-4 that the killer of Frank was the same man who killed Big John at the end with the shotgun. However, I take issue with Sandym's labeling of him as a "hippie". From my understanding of the term "Hippie" (someone who stands for peace), a hippie would never kill, except maybe in defense.
shareRight! We had a discussion of that at my house today, that Killer's violence disqualified him as a hippie (peacenik), but that there are good and bad apples whereever you go, and people who claim to belong to peaceful groups but are the exact opposite. But you may have solved part of the riddle of what got Wintergreen killed. He knew the hippie driver was clean the first time, so he assumed they were both OK. He should have heeded Willie's warning to Frank to watch out for THOSE "hippies." That also explains his name, wintergreen, evergreen...permanently green, permanently naive. So is it supposedly naive to be good? All those peaceful hippies hanging out with this violent guy for drugs and money (if he was dealing, he had money)...another case of compromomised values. John and Willie were the only "good guys" in the story.
shareRight! We had a discussion of that at my house today, that Killer's violence disqualified him as a hippie (peacenik), but that there are good and bad apples whereever you go, and people who claim to belong to peaceful groups but are the exact opposite. But you may have solved part of the riddle of what got Wintergreen killed. He knew the hippie driver was clean the first time, so he assumed they were both OK. He should have heeded Willie's warning to Frank to watch out for THOSE "hippies." That also explains his name, wintergreen, evergreen...permanently green, permanently naive. So is it supposedly naive to be good? All those peaceful hippies hanging out with this violent guy for drugs and money (if he was dealing, he had money)...another case of compromomised values. John and Willie were the only "good guys" in the story.
shareBy the way, thanks to everyone participating in this interesting thread. It's good to feel less alone in your tastes sometimes, known what I mean? For such a quality movie, this film is really off the radar.
share"I agree with Sandym-4 that the killer of Frank was the same man who killed Big John at the end with the shotgun. However, I take issue with Sandym's labeling of him as a "hippie". From my understanding of the term "Hippie" (someone who stands for peace), a hippie would never kill, except maybe in defense."
---------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, if you look up dictionary definitions of "hippy" you'll find as often as not a definition like this:
"A person who opposes and rejects many of the conventional standards and customs of society, especially one who advocates extreme liberalism in sociopolitical attitudes and lifestyles."
In this sense, you could say that any of the Weather Underground were hippies, and at one point in that group's evolution they were certainly willing to kill for their principles (though they later retracted that stance after the Greenwich Village disaster).
Also, you could probably argue that any scumbag drug dealer who emerged from the 60s and was an avid fan of Captain Beefheart, Deep Purple, the MC5, etcetera, could also be called a "hippy," based on preferred clothing styles and so forth. I wasn't alive then, so I don't really know, but I get the feeling that the word was a general descriptor for any "hipster" of the new scene, whether good or bad, whether a poser or a genunine political activist, or any dumb, impressionable teenager who if born in the 70s would've become a shopping mall rat and zealous fan of Duran Duran in the 80s. I think the hippies in Electra Glide in Blue who killed Big John were of the darker variety, just a bunch of drug dealing dirtbags who would kill you as quickly as any conservative, pissed off, gun totin' NRA activist who caught you on his land after dark. In fact, it's pretty clear that EGiB had a conservative bent, and if anything was more of a film designed, in part, to be a counter to the beatnik stylings of Easy Rider, to be a film that told a sympathetic story from a cop's point of view. Don't forget that target practice scene where the cops take aim at Hopper and Fonda!
I don't know if you can come up with a definition of "hippie" that applies to anyone self-consciously pursuing a specific philosophy unless you're talking about a very narrow group of people in a very specific timeframe (eg, the mostly white, mostly middle class Haight-Ashbury residents of the mid-late 1960s).
By the time this movie was made in 1973 it was just a broad category encompassing long-haired people pursing some kind of counterculture lifestyle with non-specific political beliefs (ie, "against the man and the war").
"...The killer was the hippie who killed Wintergreen -- with the same shotgun -- which is why he was ready to kill any cop who pulled them over. He's even identified as "Killer" in the credits, and not just because he killed Big John. Incidentally, Killer was played by Terry Kath, the Chicago guitarist who wrote and performed "Tell Me" at the end of the film. Unbelieveable irony, considering how Terry died. "
Thank you Sandym-4,
Although I have a faint lingering doubt, your interpretation makes enough sense to "close the case".
Seemed to me I never saw John bend the rules. Yet, though it may not mean a great deal; the one time John breaks the rules and gives a guy a break - it kills him.
I wouldn't get too caught up in the definition of hippies; loosely defined, I think you could say there were all kinds of people who might fit that description and sometimes it was a physical descripiton more often than of an idealist lifestyle.
****************
I guess I could google it, but further background on Terry Kath might be interesting? What was the irony?
*********
A whole other can of worms, Blake played so many cops - and yet some believe he murdered his wife.
The song from his detective series (did he finally get to be a detective or maybe just a PI?) - was "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time" (something like that)
You're welcome. (And apologies if there is half of a second version of this note somewhere, I hit the wrong key again.)You are so right Terry Kath's is an interesting story -- fascinating, actually. He was one of the greatest guitar players who ever lived, entirely self-taught. Jimi Hendrix said he was "better than me," and I completely concur. The studio version of "25 or 6 to 4" has been called one of the best guitar solos ever recorded (again, I agree). I think one of the reasons he hasn't gotten the credit he deserves is he made it sound so easy, like the sound just grew there by itself or something. Check him out on Chicago I (CTA)through VIII, especially CTA. Anyway, he accidentally shot himself to death with a handgun about five years after EGiB: a tragic, tragic loss. Google "Chicago the Band" for their web site and read about Terry under "history." Actually, the entire Chicago band deserves more credit than they often receive. They are some of the most accomplished musicians on Earth, and they will be touring for their 40th straight year in 2007. The guys still talk about and honor Terry, and you can't find a better time anywhere than their shows. They sound (and look) a #@!! of a lot better than the Rolling Stones!
shareYes sandym-4, Chicago and War are my two favorite big sound groups from that era (though I've never gotten to the level of knowing their bios); lots of power and talent; will have to pay more attention to Kath's sound.
I came across this review of EGB:
"...Chicago members play minor roles. Lee Loughnane plays a pig farmer in a commune. Walter Parazaider is a member of that commune who gets roughed up by a law enforcement officer. Peter Cetera plays a murder suspect who undergoes a grueling interrogation. Terry Kath plays a role that is small, but critical to the movie. To reveal it here might give away the movie's plot to those who haven't seen it. ..." - Tim Wood
http://www.timmwood.com/electraglide.html
Hey AccidntlTourist...Chicago was a "faceless" band to me, too, until I saw my first show in 10 years in 2005. I went home and read up on the guys all night at their web site, and it totally changed my perspective on their sound. It made me a much bigger fan. War...another great band. Thank you for the blurb pointing out Walt. He was the only band member in the movie I wasn't sure about spotting. If you miss the "old" Chicago check out Robert Lamm's solo work (which employs all Chicago members except maybe Bill Champlin; they call it the "true" Chicago sound), the Christmas album and "90 degrees and freezing" on XXX. You might also be surprised at how the band feels about the commercial direction they've been forced into. Thanks for the fun discussion.
share"The killer was the hippie who killed Wintergreen -- with the same shotgun -- which is why he was ready to kill any cop who pulled them over. He's even identified as "Killer" in the credits, and not just because he killed Big John. Incidentally, Killer was played by Terry Kath, the Chicago guitarist who wrote and performed "Tell Me" at the end of the film. Unbelieveable irony, considering how Terry died."
-------------------------------
I disagree. I don't think we're meant to know precisely who the killer was, because it was immaterial to the main thrust of the film, which was Big John's journey from traffic cop to detective and then back to traffic cop. I think that Guercio and the writers created this element of confusion intentionally. That the "Killer" was quick to draw on a cop can be interpreted differently (the "killer" name could just refer to the fact that he killed Big John, by the way). I think it was sort of a slap in the face to the counterculture of the day, which thanks to Easy Rider had something of a reputation as being peaceniks who, if anything, were more likely to be brutalized by cops than vice-versa. I suspect that Guercio and company had an ulterior, somewhat conservative-minded motivation for making the "killer" a prototype counterculture hippy dude.
[deleted]
How about Crazy Willie killed Frank with the .22. But Zipper staged the fake suicide when he arrived on the scene first and found the $5,000 just lying there. The pork chops and the false teeth left in the glass were meant to give the impression of a deranged and impulsive act. (Frank killed himself after cooking the pork chops and deciding to throw them away, rather than putting it his teeth and eating them.)
Zipper's motive was to remove any suspicion of robbery. Crazy Willie then went off a deep mesa when he returned much later from Superstition Mountain and found that Frank had killed himself "after he was dead." (Remember the corpse gave quite and impression of decay when Big John found it).
Zipper's final panic was then caused by his fear that the discovery of the entire truth would come out. And Crazy Willie's confession was real.
The "Killer" in the van was the living cop-killer Harve had been imagining during some raving about nine dead cops earlier in the film.
Most subtle irony of all ... Harve was right in the end.
"That bastard, Donald Crisp!"
I don't know whether anybody mentioned this but the "hippie" argument earlier got me thinking, i reckon the film is not just a counter balance to easy rider but is also a nod towards the shift of attitudes from the late 60's to the 70's. The peace of the sixties was well and truly shattered and the early seventies was the big come-down and things were much darker. Cocaine and heroin replaced weed and acid and a lot of the "hippies" became criminals. I think if anything the film shows that things aren't as black and white as they're portrayed in films like easy rider (establishment bad, hippies good). The cops and the hippies are as bad as each other.I also agree with whoever it was that said it didn't matter who killed frank, the fact that more or less anyone could've done it adds to the blurred moral lines the film works around. At the end of the day, the film has got everyone talking which is what all good films should do.
"A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti."
Willie killed Frank, and faked the suicide.
Have you forgotten that they showed his hands tying the toe to the trigger?
Sorry for the delay in response. I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with Sandym-4 on his interpretation. The use of the shot-gun at the end was not an ultimate revelation of the killer's identity. Rather, it is mostly a stylistic technique used to further the storyline. The director was a big fan of repitition and foreshadowing. For instance, the movie begins with a shotgun death and ends with one as well. John starts out on a motorcycle and finishes on one after his stint as a detective. "Loneliness" speech foreshadows the death of Zipper, as does Zipper's pointing the gun at John in the beginning, as he ultimately tries to kill him at the end, only to be done in by John himself. If, in fact, the hippie with the gun killed the drug dealer, it would have undermined Big John's moral odyssey as well as the point of the movie itself. The symbolism/themes in the movie were too carefully planned for there to be an abrubt shock ending, as the ending seemed more to be a homage to Easy Rider, only depicting the death of the protagonist in a more nagtive sense. As for Crazy Willy being not "together" enough to do it, i think that he was with it until he finally killed his friend, causing him to lose it. Remmeber, the police were surprised to see him running around in the desert, implying that even though he was crazy willy the hermit, he was still functional.
share"-- with the same shotgun --" (sandym-4 )
I doubt it was the same shotgun since removing the shotgun from the scene after the "suicide" would kinda destroy the point of staging the suicide, don't ya think?
How does a guy commit suicide as he (supposedly) did and then remove the shotgun from the premises?
Identifying Terry Kath as "Killer" in the credits doesn't necessarily mean he killed Frank. He also killed Wintergreen, so he's certainly the "killer" there. [edit: Oops, seems The Beard killed Wintergreen (somebody here said), so assuming that Bob Zembko is really a real person, and not Terry Kath, I'll have to re-think this part of it).
I just started reading the messages on this film so maybe it's been mentioned already, but I'm a bit confused by Frank's (alleged) killing. The opening sequence shows someone -- presumably Frank -- setting up a shotgun suicide in exactly the same manner as Frank's "staged" suicide. He's also presumably the person cooking the porkchops.
So the scene sets up as a guy who's about to commit suicide and having his last meal of pork chops before doing so. Makes sense to me. Seems like a reasonable thing to do for a guy who's decided to kill himself. Assuming he liked fried pork chops.
We even see him follow through and kill himself. Did we not?
So what was that all about? It couldn't have happened that way if he was killed first. Was it just a dream sequence or something?
Or was he shot afterward? Or was the .22 slug something he'd been carrying around for years (long-ago wound)?
THAT kinda makes sense to me. The film is about a guy who really needs and wants a murder to solve and he gets it -- after pissing off the coroner who's sure it's just a suicide -- and makes it to detective (or detective's driver anyway) only to get demoted back to motorcycle traffic cop AND the "murder" turns out to be a suicide after all.
And HE gets murdered in the end.
Now THAT all makes sense to me.
I may just throw that out as a new thread and see what kind of action I get.
------
8/14/09 update / edit: I found a review wherein the reviewer implied (I think) that it was Killer (Terry Kath) that killed Wintergreen at the end of the film. I don't know if that's correct or not. He said: "On a note of sad irony, Terry Kath, the longtime Chicago vocalist who died in 1978 from a self-inflicted gunshot to the head, plays a gun-wielding killer in this film."
The only "gun-wielding killer" I can think of that would apply would be the hippie that shot Wintergreen, but maybe I'm missing something. Was there another hippie that was a "gun-wielding killer"? I also don't know Terry Kath by sight, so I couldn't identify him in the film.
See the review here -
http://www.answers.com/topic/electra-glide-in-blue
I don't have the DVD (or VHS) so I can't re-watch and see if Wintergreen's killer is identified (by the driver) in the film; that is, whether or not the driver called him by name. I think I read on this forum that a poster identified him as The Beard. So maybe the driver called him Beard. I can't say one way or the other. Those of you with the DVD or tape can let me know.
But according to the Wikipedia article,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra_Glide_in_Blue
Kath was Wintergreen's killer:
"Shortly afterwards, Wintergreen loses his own life in an ending reminiscent of the end of Easy Rider. On the road again, he encounters the van of the hippie that he and Zipper had interrogated earlier in the film; the hippie is now accompanied in the van by a friend (Terry Kath)."
Not the most reliable source, perhaps, but if true, then those of you who think that "Killer" was a hippie who killed Frank would likely be wrong to think that.
I still like my theory; namely, that Frank's death was indeed a suicide and Willy's confession was a figment of his imagination. There's a lot of irony in the film and this aspect of the matter is truly ironic if true (no murder at all). The only thing queering my theory, of course, is the .22 slug and the coroner's opinion that it killed Frank. If true, then he surely was dead before he decided to kill himself, as the coroner said. But keep in mind that he was basing that cause of death on the fact that it was (in his opinion) impossible for a man to shoot himself in the back of his head after shooting himself in the chest with the shotgun. Or that someone else would shoot him in the back of the head after he'd already committed suicide by shotgun blast. I don't think the coroner actually made a forensic finding that the .22 bullet was the true cause of death. I don't think that was possible here.
But if that's true (he died from the .22 shot), then what was the opening sequence about? I mean, we see the guy tying the string around his toe and then around the shotgun's trigger. We also see him then shoot himself. Plus we see (later) the old phonograph arm still on the record, where it presumably came to rest after the player's spring wound down (that was an old spring-wound phonograph and the opening scene shows the record playing during the suicide preparation (and pork chop frying session). So that all fits with it being a suicide. And if what we saw never actually happened, then it was just a dream sequence or something. I don't see that fitting here.
Maybe crazy Willy shot him in the back of the head AFTER he committed suicide, not realizing that he was already dead? That seems possible to me. I mean, he WAS crazy.
I think Frank shot himself and thus this case never was a case. It was just a suicide after all.
Compelling argument.
The irony concept of Wintergreen's ambitions causing a homocide investigation of suicide works completely well with all other tragic ironies shown in this film.
I can accept this. It's a good film. Each analysis of the characters in an attempt to explain that left to quetion makes one think about what conviction and indiscretion can lead to.
Pretty sure now....Zipper convinced willie to kill, because zipper wanted to get at the money he knew was there....willie shot him *after* he does commit suicide...the money? he could have learned this from willie (explains the missing 22 gun, willie would not have been smart enough to...well, do ANYTHING); he planted the idea, stole the money (this is why he buys the blue motorcycle), and when the hippies realized what had happened, they stole what they could. since they were dealing with frank, they knew there was money/drugs about.... When zipper realizes the murder has been found out, he knows it is a question of time before willie admits to it, this is why he gets wasted before blake arrives, he knows he's done.
Let me add: this movie is about disillusion, really....the money dooms zipper, instead of releasing him; his 'promotion' dooms big john, instead of making him happy; Willie does not wish to be lonely....so he (in his mind) must kill his only friend (!!!)...the fatal acts are within the useless goals of the characters. As with us all.
just saw your post.
It is so clear that Zipper is behind the killing. You have an interesting take. I definitely agree on the human tragedy aspects of the film
Harve is both right and wrong,all along. The freaks would not have killed Frank w/o taking that cash and the dope (If Harve found it so would they). The one who stole the money, and staged the suicide is Wintergreen's Partner. How else could he buy that flushed in chrome Electra Glide in Blue. Once he showed it to Wintergreen the jig was up and that is when he attempted to kill him in a drunken rage.
The freaks (and their illegal activity) indirectly lead to Frank's death by giving him cause to deal drugs and hang out. W/o them, the money wouldn't be there to motivate murder by the cop or Willie.
Harve was a jerk, but his character prophesied Wintergreen's demise.
This is a great story, with tragic irony that demonstrates the strengths and weaknesses of people and society.
The film is not about the murder. It's not a murder mystery, it's a character study. Wintergreen says that loneliness can kill you deader than a magnum 357.
Willie is lonely, and so is Wintergreen and Zipper.
Willie and Frank drifted away because the young people Frank was dealing with became Frank's friends. Wintergreen drifted from Zipper because he wanted to be in homicide. "Your just hungry to one of them glomour boys, ain't you", "I guess your just getting tired of old Zip, huh?".
Elcectra Glide in Blue - Tribute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDBYtkxhVuU&feature=related
I agree with the original poster here, your beliefs are correct. It doesn't make a lot of sense that a drifting bum who is barely competent would be so calculated and able to deceive the police, nor even be interested in killing him anyway, out of some sort of jealousy. This isn't a great film, far from it.
share