MovieChat Forums > Kojak (1973) Discussion > Was Hollywood that misinformed about gun...

Was Hollywood that misinformed about guns back then?


I started watching Kojak on Hulu. By season 1, episode 3, I knew I was going to have a tough time watching this show. They showed a 1911( which fires a .45) and said that was a 9mm. Then, they talked about how the 9mm, if I am remembering this right, "could blow your leg clean off."

Did no one in Hollywood at the time consult with experts before shooting things(no pun intended)? I am no firearms expert myself, and I realize I now live in a time of much higher production values for shows, but surely they can't believe that something as small a a 9mm could possibly cause that kind of damage?

I am not trying to be snarky, I am honestly curious, being born in the 80's, if this kind of misinformation was the norm back then.

P.S.- Not saying a 9mm is not dangerous, but c'mon, they make it sound like a shotgun.

reply

Dude, that's not Hollywood, that's Rudy-Town, Manhattan South. About the guns, I don't know one from another and I appreciate your input. I watch these shows for the cars and chicks.

reply

if you are talking about the gun prince took out of his pocket and showed kojak early in episode 3, it was a 9mm. while not the most powerful round, ive never heard 9mm referred to as 'small' until now. and on the subject of todays shows having 'much higher production values' i respectfully beg to differ.

reply

[deleted]

i gave my opinion and you gave yours. the fact that you had to resort to name calling throughout your post says alot more about you than me. you could not argue my one stated fact about the weapon in question so you resorted to hyperbole. now go back to picking your fantasy football teams.

reply

If you don't want me or anybody else to respond, [u]STOP[/u]coming up with *beep* conspiracy theory WHARRGARBL about how things are or what things are. Remember, you have the right to an INFORMED opinion, not an uninformed one.

reply

[deleted]

Wow, I had no idea this kind of pissing match would start up.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/192/kojak-one-for-the-morgue
Earlier in the show, when raiding a building they pull out a 1911, and say, "Here is a 9mm." Let's forget that for a moment.

At 23 minutes and around 53 seconds, Kojak says, "Plus, they use a 9mm, which is enough to blow a man's leg off."

What I am saying is a simple matter of physics(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_of_firearms). To put it simply, the momentum, the force of the bullet, cannot be any greater than the force released. By that I mean, the recoil of the gun is about the same amount of force that hits the target. The Hollywood idea of firing a small gun with a small amount of recoil, and seeing them going flying through the air, is just ridiculous.

I never tried to imply that the 9mm is not dangerous. With guns, the important thing is location, location, location. A .22 to the forehead is more effective than a .50 BMG to the leg.

However, this is a simple idea. If anyone has ever seen the kind of hole a 9mm makes on a target, well, it is tiny. Like, oh, 9 millimeters. Even counting that the bullet will deform when it strikes bone, and the splintering bone will shatter in several directions, the exit wound would still only be several centimeters in diameter. That is not taking into account how dense the tibia and fibula and femur are.

Go through the leg, yes. Blow a leg, at the very least, what, 6 inches in diameter at its narrowest point(ankle does not count) off? No, absolutely no.

Anyone with basic knowledge of physics and anatomy and (more importantly) the firearms they are basing the episode around would be able to spot this kind of error.

I am not trying to cause a heated debate, I am just saying this would be so obvious that unless they did absolutely NO research into the topic they are writing about(in which case they shouldn't have written it in the first place) they should have been able to spot this glaring error. This still occurs in modern television. The idiotic "cop-killer" bullet myth being an example, I know it was in Lethal Weapon 3, and an episode of the show Castle. But these kind of things are much rarer nowadays, not just in these types of shows, but in many other kinds (medical drama's for example). It just seems like they take more times to get the details right. To me, it is the details that sell the story, authenticity. I just don't see that in a lot of the older shows.

reply

your quote:
Earlier in the show, when raiding a building they pull out a 1911, and say, "Here is a 9mm." Let's forget that for a moment.

if you want to forget it, fine, but if you want to know the facts its actually a walther p38. if you notice there is only one grip screw, the 1911 has two; one each near the top and bottom. the p38 is 9mm.

your quote:
I never tried to imply that the 9mm is not dangerous. With guns, the important thing is location, location, location. A .22 to the forehead is more effective than a .50 BMG to the leg.


actually the old saying goes 'a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with anything else (.357,etc.') i would not expound on that by saying a .50 cal leg hit is less lethal than a .22 hit to the head.

reply

Terribly sorry. It is rude of me to not respond to something you quoted. I am afraid I was busy, and this thread slipped my mind. Hope you did not take offense(seeing the length of time between some posts on these forums, I assume it is not).

1.) Ahhh, thank you for that. Last time I watch a streaming show on dial up. I saw nowhere near that level of detail. As to what you said, I think I was trying to make a point without being hung up by errant detail, but thank you for pointing that out. Yes, the Walther P38 was chambered in 9mm.

2.) How amusing. I never even knew such a saying existed, I was just contrasting a large with a small cartridge. However, I respectfully disagree. We were talking about wound patterns and the physics of hydro shock. A comparison between to hits of different calibers in two different places, in that case would be entirely apt. I would say comparing a hit, to not a hit when speaking of wounds, would in this case be the unrelated comment.

reply

I cringe at shows like 'Nikita,' 'Law & Order: SVU' and 'The Walking Dead,' featuring cocking/clicking sounds from striker-fires pistols, and Glocks with manual safeties...this silliness still goes on, ruining perfectly good shows.

reply

I watch Kojak---all other detective shows---for entertainmemt value. I don't care about guns.
It seems rather disturbing when people know so much about guns and discuss them at length here. Entertainment is just that----something that entertains .

reply

I agree 100% with the previous post. I am glad I grew up in the 70's as this was the best decade for cop shows: Kojack, Baretta, Starsky and Hutch, Police Story, SWAT etc. They were enteraining and I still love them today.

reply

i hope you are checking your posts but, yes, hollywood - especially tv - did not follow through on the "csi" stuff back then. i am a true fan of the '50's thru '70's police dramas and they were for entertainment only.

the untouchables, the detectives, checkmate, tightrope, 87th precinct, burk's law, etc. gave you a good hour of fun and that was all. looking at kojak now (i am glad 2-5 are are dvd now), some one gets shot in back and front in a white shirt and not a spot of red.

watching other "old" shows and some one gets shot, falls into pool, and the pool stays a crystal blue. go figure.

you mention you were born in the 80's. i was born in the 40's and, belive me, i have seen great progress in tv to from just entertainment to, 'oh plz, don't insult my intelligence" shows.

the only thing i can say is, just enjoy hulu, infinity, netflix and wherever there are the old show. i appreciate them more now when the new shows are just a tad too bloody.

reply

They're not misinformed - its propaganda, lies, take your pick.

You hear 'Is it registered' frequently as far back as Perry Mason in the 50's
( there was no registration and still isn't in many places ! )

The sounds made by gunfire is dubbed in almost ALL cases to make it more 'dramatic ( most handguns sound more like a loud popping sound - NOT ka-boom )

I've seen everything from suppressors ( silencers to the Hollywood set ) used on revolvers ( no that won't work - at least it will not lessen the sound of the revolver because of the gap between the cylinder and the barrel breech !! ) to Glocks that make a clicking sound from repeatedly pulling the trigger after the magazine is empty ( not they will not do that ).
You cannot shoot down a helicopter with a .38 snub nosed revolver at over a 100 yards McGarrett.
Any you cannot just put someone's name into 'CODUS' and instantly get everything you ever wanted to know about them CSI, CSI Miami etc etc .

'I watch Kojak---all other detective shows---for enterainmemt value. I don't care about guns.
It seems rather disturbing when people know so much about guns and discuss them at length here. Entertainment is just that----something that entertains .'

The problem is that MANY people actually BELIEVE what they see in some of these silly so-called shows and think it is factual. That's one of the reasons you hear things like 'the gun went off'. No it didn't, someone or something pulled/pressed/activated the trigger. Guns do not just go off.

Hollywood is not ignorant, as a whole they are incredibly anti-gun, have been for decades and lace anything they can with their opinion / message.

McGarrett in one episode say 'You put a gun in a man's hand and you don't know what he might do'. Riiight SteveO. Merely touching one turns anyone into a homicidal maniac unless of course he's had the super secret Jedi training like police officers, none of whom as we all know, have ever 'gone off the rails'.

Like I said, propaganda. Dr. Goebbels would be proud !!


Quitters never win and winners never quit
BUT
those who never quit & never win are STUPID

reply

LOL - oh yeah, Hollywood is SUPER anti-gun - that explains why Hollywood studios have existed on thrillers, westerns, film noir, police shows, detective mysteries, trial dramas, crime dramas, military/war dramas, horror, science fiction - plus every combo you can think of, coroners who solves crimes, FBI agents who hunt UFO's, lil old lady detectives, sci-fi westerns... Hollywood is full of hand guns, laser guns, phasers, machine guns, historically accurate guns, totally fantastic guns.

Police officers go "off the rails" on television - just naming one show, The X-Files, featured many FBI agents who weren't exactly honorable people.

Hollywood has been one of the main factors in re-writing our American western history, portraying the frontier as was filled with honorable gun fighters, whose sole job in life was to hunt down the bad guys who took advantage of decent, honest folk - rather than the truth - which you can read in Mark Twain, Bret Harte, or any of the writers from that time period, that there weren't any "gun fighters," just a lot of folks with guns, far out from the more civilized areas, some of whom were completely out of control, others who might talk brave but would do anything to not actually get into a gun duel, others who were only brave with guns in the dark of night with a mob, plus a whole bunch of carpet baggers, con artists, and misfits.

When you say Goebbles would be proud of Hollywood, i know that you mean he'd be proud of the job hollywood has done in promoting their "incredibly anti-gun" slant...but that's a absurd. We can't even get legislation passed in this country - after a maniac walks into a school and kills a bunch of kids - that would close loopholes in *already existing laws!* without citizens absolutely *freaking out.* Intelligent, college-educated adults, have seriously said to me "they're going to come and try to take our guns away" - as if they government is were going to send trucks around, going door-to-door, and start loading up peoples firearms. Wow, Hollywood sure has done some real brainwashing there!

Can you IMAGINE how much money the television and movie industry would *lose* if all of a sudden they couldn't put out extremely violent, gun-filled crime & detective dramas? Hollywood needs a well-armed America, it needs tons of illegal weapons pouring into our inner cities, it needs guns in every corner of American life, to fuel it's entertainment machine.

Tho, i'd agree with you, actually, that Goebbles would be proud, the media has Americans brainwashed all right, the media has Americans brainwashed into a gun culture that will NEVER die. Never. The military *couldn't," logistically, take away "our guns," the American people have more firearms than the military - besides, it would be super dangerous to even attempt, violence would surely break out. While one may counter that most people are sheep-like, and will do whatever anybody in authority says, including giving up their guns, i'd say that American gun culture is extremely entrenched, and is such a huge part of the American identity, and there are tons of people who feel VERY strongly about their guns - and as this thread has shown, are very well informed about their guns - that there definitely would be people who would resist, and there would be violence.

Tho, really, it's ridiculous to talk about, the firearms industry is FAR too wealthy and powerful, and far too politically influential, to ever allow any kind of arms take away. Geez, we can't even get the smallest gun regulations passed. We can't even get legislation passed that would help stop illegal guns from pouring into inner cities that are rife with frightening amounts of gun violence. And Hollywood studios (many of which are family-owned dynasties) and big time producers - the wealthiest, most politically influential and powerful people in Hollywood - would NEVER want to see *real* gun laws passed, it would totally ruin their business. Sure, individual writers, actors & directors have their own, individual opinions on gun control, both pro and con, as is there *right* as Americans. They are free to have those views, and they are *free* to promote those views - just as YOU are free to promote your anti-gun-control views. But the real power in Hollywood lies higher up. It takes so many people to make a movie, or TV show, that even the director has very little actual control. The "message" of a Hollywood product is never going to really work against those who are the most powerful - not in any meaningful way.

One thing is for sure, every child in America, because of Hollywood, is familiar with and comfortable with and has learned to enjoy, guns as entertainment. Even young, rebellious, fiery teen-agers who say they want to see strong gun control laws probably still enjoy watching people get shot on film. Nearly every child in America plays with guns at some point in their lives, be they plastic toy guns, BB guns, paint guns or video game guns.

Hollywood has made sure that even the *most* sheltered suburban kid - far away from rural sports hunting, and urban gangs - is still familiar and comfortable with the idea of guns being an integral part of American life. That's how "anti-gun" Hollywood is - from the time of the early Westerns and crime dramas, to today, Hollywood has done it's part to create an American mythology that is heavily steeped in an ubiquitous gun culture.

reply

The point the man was making is indisputable and that is that at every opportunity Hollywood and in fact, the media, do all they can to make firearms look bad. These people go to lengths of giving them mystic powers, basically lives of their own as the previous poster pointed out.
As I write this it has been just a couple of days since an islamic madman shot up a gun free Marine recruitment center and the media and the left are out there ignoring the fact it was a gun free zone this animal chose to attack simply because it was a gun free zone but they are also soul searching looking for a motive to explain how one of their fellow travelers, as far as hating American culture is concerned, went off the rails when all you need to do is see his name and listen to his prior statements and his motives are entirely evident.
Again all this just shows the lenghts the left, Hollywood included will go to to make their political points, just as the previous poster was alluding to.
One thing most can agree on, here, now, with this event still fresh on our minds is this, there should not have been a gun free zone. That contributed to that location being picked and also helped cause those people to die as it allowed them no options to defend themselves.
Rich in New Mexico.

reply

Just to add...Many Hollywood Elite Actors (actors who have turned retarded after becoming rich)..Sean Penn and others, who have armed bodyguards rally against law abiding citizens having guns. it's well known that Hollywood is a mecca for liberal idiots. Gun Free Zones are about the dumbest thing that anyone has created in history. I think that these places exist on purpose so that psychos can kill many people so that some scumbag prezident can push their anti-gun agenda. Not to mention these liberal idiots running parts of the government(who also have their own armed guards). Common Sense evades these people entirely. Taking guns from "Law Aiding Citizens" is purely nonsensical and leads us down the path to form a population that is helpless against a tyrannical government that liberals have been promoting for decades.

reply

M1911 pistol

Cartridge: .45 ACP

Other commercial and military derivatives: Other versions offered include .22

.38 Super, 9mm Parabellum, .40 S&W, 10mm Auto, .400 Corbon, .460 Rowland, .22 LR,

.50 GI, .455 Webley, 9×23 mm Winchester, and others. The most popular

alternative versions are 9mm Parabellum (9×19mm), .38 Super and 10mm Auto.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol

reply

Honestly, I don't think people watched for the brand of guns. If you were born in the 80's, that puts me a decade or so older than you are. I missed this show when it was on the air, but I'm watching it now. I watch it for the great acting, the fashion and the sexy Savalas. I'm sure men watch it for the "hot chicks" and cars like the other poster said. If you watch this show and can only think about the brand of guns instead of the brilliant writing, acting and direction, maybe you should watch something else. Just a thought. Not trying to be rude, but most people aren't that concerned with things like this. It WAS a TV show after all. Some things are just not going to be right.

Actors are mere products of a good writer's imagination

reply

What's worse than that is the number of shows that had people screwing silencers on revolvers. That doesn't work. And they'd make this "Pffft!" noise, which also doesn't happen. A silencer is really a suppressor... it'll reduce the noise of a gunshot, but it'll still be pretty darn loud. On TV, the guns make a noise about like a can of Coke being opened. Silly.

reply