A couple of questions and THAT dream sequence...

Hi Joe,

Yes I bought the DVD and used the subtitles but even there, the dialogue is cut off and it is now just comepletely niggling at me!

I was disappointed though, that the DVD (at least the one I have) has no extras; simply the movie, scene selection and options for subtitles.

Och well! Can't moan too much, the movie is fantastic in itself!

xx

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There's no doubt that they did have an incestuous liaison, alluded to in both flashbacks and letters. But McB's truncated outburst: "Whose own brother left because..." suggests the reason was more personal than contemporary draft dodging. Did she insist on continuing an incestuous liaison against his wishes/become too possessive/manipulative? Did she eject him because he tried to rape Hallie? Was she even aware of the latter incident? The wording is deliberately ambiguous but, in my view, definitely hints at personal and quite disturbing motives.

And yes, this is one of the most avant-garde, risque, and plain weird movies of all times, and way, way ahead of its time. Eastwood took a huge career risk which perversely paid off in an cult/artistic sense, if not box-office success, and all power to him. It's one of *my* all-time fave movies as a big fan of the late great Geraldine Page (check out her daughter Angelica Torn in The Sixth Sense) plus the Gothic genre. Put the two together and it's an unbeatable combination.

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I just rewatched the DVD and it really *isn't* clear what happened to Miles, Martha's brother.

Edwina says he's "missing, presumed dead". Martha says he's "not here now and never will be" (for which reason she invites McB to stay on). And McB says, "whose own brother disappeared because..." Cue Randolph the turtle/terrapin's brutal demise, preventing the contents of the Farnsworth siblings' illicit love letters/reason(s) for Miles's absence being revealed to the gathered audience.

As for the attempted rape scene, Miles rips Hallie's top in the barn and she fends him off with a pitchfork. That seems to be the limit of it. Then, following McB's mean drunk stint after the amputation, saying he'll "start" with Hallie, she says, "then white boy, you better like it with a dead black woman, 'cause that's the only way you'll get it from this one," which again implies that Miles got no further than attempted rape.

There are 3 flashbacks in total of intimacy between Miles and Martha: two in bedrooms and one in a field. None of the flashbacks allude to what might have happened to him, and Martha's reflections on these scenes seem wistful and nostalgic. There is also an interesting comment from Hallie when she encourages the hesitant Martha to pull McB's pants off to dress his wounded leg, saying, "he ain't made no different than your brother", implying some sort of knowledge or suspicion of their incestuous relationship. This remark spurs Martha to the sharp retort, "I have asked you *never* to speak of my brother". Nor is there any further mention of him between those two.

Hallie later tells McB that Miles "finally got us separated" (meaning from Ben, her man but not 'rightly-married' husband) by deciding to "sell him off", prompting Ben to run away before this could happen, his whereabouts still unknown. McB cynically uses this knowledge to try to manipulate her into helping him escape early on, promising he'll try to find out what happened to Ben, even if he has to "go to General Grant personally".

On closer viewing, while McB isn't a sympathetic character, he's not exactly the devil in disguise either. He needs to survive, so he does what it takes to that end. One can excuse his self-serving liberties with the truth in such a hostile environment. The "hot girl" Carol adds to the powder keg by shamelessly manipulating him - he clearly is debating between Martha and Edwina's rooms when he feels Carol watching him from the stairs, whereupon he follows her up. Just prior to this he susses (and she confirms it) that she almost managed to betray him from jealousy to the Feds by tying the blue rag to the gate, and his escape is a narrow one indeed. Clearly ignoring her could be dangerous for him, even if he wasn't naturally attracted to her - and indeed, what straight man wouldn't be?

As for Martha's erotic dream sequence, I see what one poster meant about her, McB, and Edwina seeming to acquire scales! There's a weird herringbone/lattice effect present for whatever reason, but I didn't really notice it till it was pointed out, being so absorbed by the haunting church music of that bizarre yet tastefully 'arty' scenario.

Overall, a gem of a film in its own highly offbeat way and my opinion hasn't changed in the 20+ years since I first saw it. Kudos to Eastwood for departing from a more commercial path, and to a brilliant supporting cast, in particular the ever-dependable Geraldine Page who really brought Martha to life. (I much preferred the film to the somewhat meandering novel.) Someone also remarked on Mae (Hallie) Mercer's spirited performance, and I'm wondering why we didn't see more of her. (Oddly, the horse that pulled Martha's black buggy was referred to as Mae/May in the film, by Mae/Hallie herself.) I don't recall seeing Mae either before or since The Beguiled although IMDB says she was in Dirty Harry, Squint's follow-up film. Maybe we should start a MM appreciation society:-) Tragic about poor Elizabeth Hartman (Edwina) though: for those who didn't know, at 43 she committed suicide in a particularly unpleasant way (see her IMDB entry) three days before Geraldine Page's own untimely death (from a heart attack) in 1987, at just 62.

As I have mentioned on other threads here, fans of GP might want to see her daughter (by long-term husband Rip Torn) Angelica Torn in a somewhat sinister role in the highly absorbing and wonderfully acted "The Sixth Sense" (1999). Revealing more would be a spoiler so I'll leave it at that... Happy viewing:-)

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But during the confrontation between McB and Miss Martha, McB says, "Whose own brother left because..." followed by an incriminating silence that segues into Randolph the turtle's untimely demise. The implication is that perhaps Martha's incestuous affections had become cloying and driven her sibling away, and has the authority of being based on their private correspondence which McB has stolen. And judging from Martha's reactions, this accusation has struck a raw nerve. Maybe Miles was simply adamant that he never would return and she accepted this. Or indeed, the letters may only have revealed his intent to leave and she did, as you suggest, finish him off with a 'special supper'.

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Very insightful and intelligently presented, "lobotomy". I really think you hit the nail on the head...

John

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But during the confrontation between McB and Miss Martha, McB says, "Whose own brother left because..." followed by an incriminating silence that segues into Randolph the turtle's untimely demise. The implication is that perhaps Martha's incestuous affections had become cloying and driven her sibling away, and has the authority of being based on their private correspondence which McB has stolen. And judging from Martha's reactions, this accusation has struck a raw nerve. Maybe Miles was simply adamant that he never would return and she accepted this. Or indeed, the letters may only have revealed his intent to leave and she did, as you suggest, finish him off with a 'special supper'.

I agree that Miles's reason for leaving likely had to do with Martha being clingy (in addition to him probably feeling some level of shame) but I think that there's much to suggest that he never got around to actually leaving.

Again, it's the way Martha is so certain in her belief that he won't ever be returning (enough to persuade McB to stay on and "take his place") that makes me think she's certain he's dead. She's so wistful and sentimental about their relationship, keeping his love letters, daydreaming about their intimate moments, etc---Doesn't it seem as though a part of her would hold out hope that he might eventually return to his home some day if he really is indeed still alive?

Not to mention the fact that Miles seems to have barely taken anything with him. She still has clothes of his that are in good enough condition for McB to borrow. That doesn't sound like a man who got the chance to pack up for good. Especially as finances were likely tight with the war there/looming. And there's still no reasonable answer for why Miles would give up his own house and plantation to his sister. And why is there no mention of him being in the war? Might she have killed him before the war started?

Also, it's one thing that she has the knowledge about the poisoned mushrooms. I can buy her having been told in youth not to touch a certain kind. What I find harder to buy is how she has this absolute certainty that the mushrooms will be the best way to do in McB. How does she know that they'll really work unless she's seen an example of it? There were other alternatives to killing McB. (He might've been drugged with laudanum and then killed, bashed over the head while he was with one of the girls, whatever.) Using the mushrooms makes more sense than any of those methods of course, but didn't it seem as though Martha was perfectly confident in what to expect...as though she'd seen/done something of the sort before?

As far as Hallie, she tries again and again to persuade McB to leave once she sees how things are beginning to shape out. She knows Miss Martha better than anyone in that house and can see that McB is skating on thin ice. While Hallie clearly doesn't approve of McB's behavior post-amputation, I don't think she thought he deserved to die, and it's pretty apparent that she has a clear sense that Martha is being pushed to the edge.

I theorize that Hallie helped Martha bury Miles and that this is the deeper explanation for Martha's intense irritation when she says, "I have asked you *never* to speak of my brother." It isn't just about the incest. As far as Martha is concerned, I think she imagines that her relationship with Miles has remained private for all intents and purposes. Nobody significant ever found out. (Another reason why McB's public reveal of his knowledge of the letters is her breaking point. No one had *ever* called her out on her inappropriate relationship with Miles and this action finally makes her crack.)
I'm sure that Hallie knew and that Martha probably suspected that she knew all the time but didn't particularly care since she's a slave and virtually has no right to express a negative opinion on her master or mistress. Can't you just see them having buried Miles and then having Martha say something along the lines of "We will never, ever speak of this again, do you hear?" Martha of course would know that she could count on Hallie to keep her mouth shut as she had ever reason to hate Miles. Plus, even if Martha didn't know about the attempted rape (I doubt that she did) she would have had to have known about Miles' plans for Hallie's "husband" and that would have given her the necessary assurance to think that she could trust Hallie.

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