The only scene I didn't quite understand... - Tora! Tora! Tora! (1970) Discussion

[–] CGSailor 15 years ago

your point #1 is obvious and I dont know why you even asked it. The Army and the Air Corps sole job in Hawaii was the protection of the Fleet while inport. THAT is a damn good reason for the admiral to want to know what the Air Corps is doing, Dont you? As to your point #2, Thats a little harder to address. The plan submitted was drawn up ideally without regard to availability of assets. It had nothing to do with an Admiral knowing more than the General, Kimmel was not being literal. There very well may have more than 180 B-17s but 180 of them would still have been a large % of the total, too large to be approved. I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] ccaudle 15 years ago

Thanks for your help. Well I asked the question because I did not know the answer. THAT is a good reason to want to ask a question, don't you think? I was under the assumption that the Army, Navy, etc... branches would only be talking and dealing with their own people when dealing with protecting their equipment and personnel. I would have thought a scene involving Kimmel and the security of the fleet would be dealt with solely Navy personnel, and that the questioning of the Air Corps' suggestions would have made more sense if it was General Short talking with the other General of the Air Corps.

But I'm not an expert. Thanks for clearing that up. I appreciate it.

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[–] CGSailor 15 years ago

if you like to read, might I suggest Henry C Clausen's Pearl Harbor: Final Verdict

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] DD-931 14 years ago

It has been proven many times throughout history that interservice communication and coordination is vital to the proper functioning of a country's military, interservice rivalries notwithstanding. When I was in the Navy I was part of the staff of Operation Solid Shield, an annual exercise which was all about training the different services to work together.

It makes no sense to me at all why the Navy in Hawaii would not be expected to pay attention to what the Army in Hawaii was doing, and vice versa. Not just in 1941, but at any time in history.

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[–] vonmazur 14 years ago

Guys: Remember, until the attack, the US was in a sort of cheapskate doldrum, the congress would not spend a nickle to see the Statue of Liberty take a dump...They almost killed the B 17 for the totally useless B 18 and B 23 aircraft. I know it is hard to understand today, but in those days, the tightwad idiots were ruling the spending....

Gen Short could not have covered the patrol areas as there were not enough B 17's in the whole Air Corps.....They could have concentrated on the North and West, but they had nothing to guide them from DC...Roosevelt was obsessed with "Dolfi Schicklegrueber and his punk rock-pseudo-heavy metal band, the Swastikatz", and not the Japanese threat...

Dale

"If those sweethearts won't face German bullets--They'll face French ones!"

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[–] ccaudle 14 years ago

Thanks for the replies guys, and thanks for being nicer about it than some others ;)

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[–] vonmazur 14 years ago

ccauudle: No problem, I guess that History is not presented like it was when I was younger, and I do not understand the virulent personal attacks rampant on the Net these days either....

Dale

"If those sweethearts won't face German bullets--They'll face French ones!"

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[–] ccaudle 14 years ago

No worries; that "sailor" guy can hide behind his computer and make attacks on me, but I have the almighty ignore button, so that took care of him.

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[–] CGSailor 14 years ago

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] mkotler 11 years ago

What's your problem, too may days without a woman? Maybe you should drop some soap in the shower :-)

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[–] CGSailor 11 years ago

What's yours?

Ccaudle was being an ass after I answered his question. and you think "I" have the problem.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] SpiltPersonality 11 years ago

CGSailor can be (often is) abrasive, but if you look past the abrasivness he often has a lot of good information.

I don't doubt he was in the Navy, and if he wasn't he's one of the best (as in well informed) armchair generals I've seen - and I've seen a lot.

I feel though, that if you truly come onto some of these boards and read the answers that CGSailor gives and look past the abrasiveness, then you'll learn a lot. If you put him on ignore you may get the wrong informaion from people who are more polite and less well informed.

The choice is yours but the question remains 'do you want the question answered?'.

To give a parable - let's say you've got two car mechanics. One will tell you that "your *#*$ing steering is #*$@ed and you're going to #*@_ing well spend two thousand #$*@ing dollars to get it fixed" and the other will say "there's nothing wrong with your steering" and lose control and drive over a cliff - which would you prefer to listen to?

This site isn't a matter of life and death (like the example I gave above would be) but not knowing the answer to the question asked just because you don't like the way the answer is given makes me wonder why ask the question in the first place.

SpiltPersonality

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[–] CGSailor 11 years ago

Funny thing is... I was never even rude to the OP in this thread, or any other thread. I answered his question, and a few posts down (after thanking me for responding) he accuses me of attacking him and then other idiots jump on the Attack the Sailor bandwagon.

He asked,"Why does the admiral even care what the Army was doing?"

I responded with, "The Army's sole purpose in Hawaii was to protect the Navy while in port, that's a pretty good reason to care what the Army was doing, don't you think?"

How that can be considered rude, much less an "attack" upon him I will never know.

Probably his skin is thinner that toilet tissue.
USED Toilet tissue that is...

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] BertramWilberforceWooster 11 years ago

What are some good books you can recommend about Leyte Gulf?

--
If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!

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[–] CGSailor 11 years ago

It focuses on only a specific battle of the Leyte campaign (which was actually a series of several battles)

But the best book I've read concerning the Battle Off Samar, is James Hornfischer's "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors".

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] BertramWilberforceWooster 11 years ago

Much obliged, sir.

--
If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!

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[–] ccaudle 14 years ago

? Sorry buddy; I don't think that message came through. All I see was a "post ignored" Try it again please.

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[–] TorontoJediMaster 14 years ago

The status of the Army and Army Air Force in Hawaii was something Kimmel would be very much concerned with. The Army and AAF was directly responsible for the defence of Oahu and the protection of Kimmel's ships when in port.

I'm right now reading the book At Dawn We Slept, by Donald Prange. It's an excellent book, and I highly recommend it, btw. It documents the problems then facing the armed services, especially in Hawaii.

The U.S. was just coming out of the Depression and its war industries were just starting to gear up for Lend-Lease. Everything was in short supply, especially new equipment like the B-17.

Kimmel knew that there was an urgent need for surveillance patrols, but also knew they just didn't have all the necessary aircraft to do the job.

Another problem was the General Short really didn't appreciate air power. He wanted to train Air Corps personnel as infantrymen so that when all aircraft had been destroyed, the airmen could fight on the ground -which is, as Short saw it, where the "real" fighting would be decided.

Short seemed to fail to understand that his prime task was the protection of Kimmel's ships when they were in Pearl.

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[–] ccaudle 14 years ago

Thanks for the reply. I do need to get a copy of "At Dawn We Slept." I've heard it's a very good read.

The more I've researched these events, the more I understand the circumstances these commanders were in at the time. So many "if onlys" leading up to that day.

And yes, air power was still not fully appreciated. Billy Mitchell proved how valuable air power could be, and instead was court martialed for daring to introduce a new concept.

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[–] Karl Aksel 13 years ago

No worries; that "sailor" guy can hide behind his computer and make attacks on me, but I have the almighty ignore button, so that took care of him.

Beg your pardon, what attacks? If you mean in this thread, I dare say you're being a bit touchy. He answered your questions, straight up, and you even thanked him for it. I find it very odd that you would put him on ignore for anything in this thread, especially when you did not even seem to take offence until later on, in discussion with someone else.

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[–] CGSailor 13 years ago

And that other person called it a "virulent personal attack".
WTF!?!?
some people are just way too sensitive to be allowed online.
I understand that what may be obvious to me may not be obvious to others. But when someone asks a painfully obvious question I do tend to get short.
In this case, anyone who has even the slightest background on the subject knew the army's mission was protection of the in-port fleet. Why the admiral would want to know the activities of the army is clear.

Now I know ccaudle from other threads and posts on this board and respected him(past tense) as knowledgeable on the attack, so I toned down my response. My not knowing why he even asked such a question was an expression of my incredulity. It certainly was not an attack and to think of it as a virulent personal attack... well, anyone who thinks that has never seen a virulent personal attack. If you want to see one of those just look up my personal stalker troll, brocardi.
Yeah, I got my own little stalker troll. He has gone from multiple boards posting insane BS against me and another regular poster, both of us who which served in the US Navy.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] Karl Aksel 13 years ago

And that other person called it a "virulent personal attack".
WTF!?!?
some people are just way too sensitive to be allowed online.
I understand that what may be obvious to me may not be obvious to others. But when someone asks a painfully obvious question I do tend to get short.

If you were a bit short, you were still not offensive. And he did indeed seem to take it on the chin at first, too. Why he suddenly decided that you had been offensive, I have no idea.

In this case, anyone who has even the slightest background on the subject knew the army's mission was protection of the in-port fleet. Why the admiral would want to know the activities of the army is clear.

I dare say it should be fairly obvious even without any background knowledge on the subject. Combined arms is a beautiful thing, and friendly rivalries between the military branches notwithstanding, they appreciate the value of one another. Air support is particularly welcome, as is aerial reconnaisance, spotters for artillery or shore bombardment, bombers, etc. And any admiral or general worth his salt would be very interested in keeping himself up-to-date on all military goings-on, not just the stuff immediately under his own nose. An army commander may not be able to do much about a naval blockade, but it should concern him if it meant his supplies weren't coming through.

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[–] r2626 13 years ago

That "sailor guy" has a history of attacking people. He thinks he is a genius when it comes to war movies. I put that clown on ignore a long time ago.

Help stamp out and do away with superfluous redundancy

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[–] CGSailor 13 years ago

There was no attack on Ccaudle. Your post is in factual error but it reflects your opinion to which you're entitled. The only "attacks" I have ever done are directed ONLY at trolls and total morons. Ccaudle was not either of those and I did not attack him. Your post is an attack on me .
But I could care less since you have such a fraked up and skewed opinion of me then I PREFER you to ignore me. No skin off my back.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] jwiles1 13 years ago

Another question is why use only B-17's? If there weren't enough of them, why not supplement them with other types of aircraft, such as the PBY's.

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[–] trynnallen 13 years ago

Well at least according, to PBY: History of the Catalina, by Roscoe Creed the PBY was considered to be long in the tooth by 41. Plans were actively afoot to cut production and sell the Navy PBY's to the UK. The PBY was to be replaced by PB2Y Coronado's. That fell through when the Navy decided to concentrate on it's carrier aircraft, and use Navelized versions of Army Aircraft for patrol craft. When PH fell into the crapper, the Navy bought out the production of the UK aircraft and placed a larger order for the PBY-3's/4s.

My guess is that rather than trying to intigrate aircraft that were on the cutting edge of obsolence and were going to be replaced, they were going to intigrate the PB2Y squadrons in as they came in from Stateside.

The PBY concept of a "patrol bomber" was a dieing concept as well, at least as envisioned by the PBY and PB2Y. It also helped that the Army was building airfields so fast that seaplanes wouldn't be needed.

Your soul is like an appendix. I don't even use mine.

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[–] gmansi 13 years ago

Good answer, thanks for the info.

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[–] jwiles1 13 years ago

I am reading a book right now in which Kimmel states that he was saving his PBY's to establish forward bases around Wake and Guam. Didn't want to use them up/wear them out patrolling Hawaii, since that was the Army's job anyway. Personally, I would think he should have a few of them patrolling Hawaiian waters just to get some practice patrolling, and reporting. But Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

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[–] Gatorman9 13 years ago

I think the main answer to your question is that although the Navy and army were working together, they weren't working together enough, which in this case means it doesn't seem to have occurred to anybody to find a way to coordinate Navy and army air patrol efforts to best complement one another. I also don't know why the Army never saw fit to make air patrols with their P-40's, of which they had scores at PH, apart from the fact that they were fighters (or as the army called them, a la World War One, "pursuit" aircraft) which up till then had never been routinely used for the sort of long-range patrol contemplated, and which in fact had far less flight range than the other aircraft types you ask about.

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[–] R011DaveAAA 13 years ago

Fighters then didn't have the range and loiter time, communications equipment, or navigational equipment to be effective maritime reconnaissance assets. Army fighter pilots didn't even have the training for long-range over-water operations that Navy pilots did - and Navy fighters didn't do maritime patrol either.

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[–] CGSailor 13 years ago

Agree with Dave.

Flying over water is a scale FAR IN EXCESS of simply flying over land. Your Navigation has to be PERFECT.
An Army Aviator of the time did much of his Navigation by what is termed Pilotage. Basically, you look at the ground and find common road junctions, Mountains, Rivers, etc... Landmarks on the ground and compare that to a map to keep you on course.

Try THAT over the ocean!
Over water flights at the time required in depth detailed knowledge of mathmatical concepts of Navigation to INCLUDE CELESTIAL NAVIGATION. Yes, those long range patrol craft had Navigators on board that took Sun Sightings using a sextant in order to plot positions.
Asside from the Celestial Navigation, They had to rely much more heavily and accurately on fixed course and speeds, elapsed times, wind error and multiple other factors that are part of Ded Reconing. updated by Celestial Fixes.

An Army pilot, ESPECIALLY one in a cramped Single seat fighter, would have been overwhelmed.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] whjunk 13 years ago

> I also don't know why the Army never saw fit to make air patrols with their P-40's

Not the best choice for extended patrols. The Army Air Forces had quite a few two and four engine bombers, though, that could have patrolled far enough out to give significant warning. The Navy, meanwhile, was well equipped with Catalina patrol bombers which, obviously, would have been ideal.

The concern may have been, though, that without suspicion of an imminent attack, spending a lot of fuel would have been a waste.

The Japanese reported that effective anti-aircraft fire began shortly after the first planes attacked so even 20 minutes warning could easily have changed the outcome drastically. Ammunition would have been readied and aircraft would have been aloft.

-Wm

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[–] Gatorman9 13 years ago

Yeah, I've done more reading since I posted this, and they didn't want to wear out equipment knowing war was coming. Of course, if they'd just bothered with a two-plane CAP with a pair of binoculars over Oahu that morning they might have gotten their planes scrambled in time to make some difference. AS things were, Short came out of this thing looking even worse than Kimmel. I've often wondered what the theory was behind the way they employed (or didn't) their radar.

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[–] CGSailor 13 years ago

Of course, if they'd just bothered with a two-plane CAP with a pair of binoculars over Oahu that morning they might have gotten their planes scrambled in time to make some difference.

You're joking right?
Being Ironic?
Sarcastic?

Or do you just not have any clue as to just how much warning that would give them and how quickly pilots could get to their planes?

Any patrol orbiting directly over the target would have only detected the attack force only a few minutes of the first bombs falling. Just enough time to get the word out to Command, but NOT enough time for Command to get the word out to the troops, sailors, and pilots. Let alone for the troops, sailors, and pilots to do anything.

CAP (Combat Air Patrol) is NOT a search patrol and would have done ZERO good in alerting forces. All a two plane CAP would have done would be that we would have two planes already aloft at the time of attack.

For there to be adequate warning... a SEARCH (Not CAP) patrol would have to be SENT OUT, not orbit the target.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] Gatorman9 13 years ago

No, I wasn't joking. If Short had been at war already that morning, alert pilots would have been sitting there waiting for the air raid siren to hop in their planes and having eyes in the sky could have scrambled at least some of them in under five minutes (just like during the Cold War, and other shooting war theaters of WWII even up to that point). Trouble is, nobody foresaw the possibility of a raid at that time, so nobody was ready to take off, and so the greatest concentration of American fighters in the Pacific was mostly neutralized on the ground and contributed very little to the day's events.

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[–] jwiles1 13 years ago

Fwiw, they actually did have a few pby's patrolling beyond the harbor. But the other poster is right. Even assuming the pby had the means to alert the army air corps of a strike coming in, it would have been impossible to get the fighters airborne in time to do anything about it.

Proper procedures for patrol, reporting and response is a operation that takes time and practice. It can't really be done adhoc. You need trained scouts, competent air intercept controllers that know how to vector the aircraft to the correct coordinates, and aircrews/pilots that can get the aircraft launched in a short amount of time. And I don't think this is something the Army Air folks had coordinated amongst their own commands, much less with the Navy.

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[–] indy_go_blue44 13 years ago

IIRC their were patrols to the south and SW that morning, as well as an American carrier returning from Guam(?) Radar, though having been proved effective vs the Luftwaffe over England, was still an experimental thing with US forces (in actuality, the set that discovered the inbound flight should have been shut down 30 minutes earlier) and combat control centers that would be commonplace within months were in their infancy. So on this lazy Sunday morning, untrained personnel blew it off as the inbound B-17s from California (which would have been coming from the NE, not due north.

Like the mini-sub sighting that morning and blown off, it's just one more of those incomprehensible facts that make people shake their head in disbelief at how badly Americans screwed up that day.

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[–] CGSailor 13 years ago

as well as an American carrier returning from Guam(?)

Enterprise was returning from Wake, having ferried a load of planes there for that Atoll's defense.

In actuality, Enterprise was supposed to have already been in port. She was due to arrive on the 6th of December on Saturday. The same storm system that masked the approach of the Japanese had forced The Enterprise group to slow. Enterprise was re-scheduled to arrive on the afternoon of the 7th. Several of her planes had departed early and actually arrived overhead the battle and got involved with fighting the Japanese planes.

Enterprise stayed out and searched for the Japanese but did not find Kido Butai. A good thing to, Enterprise being outnumbered 6 to 1 would in all likelihood been sunk had she found them.

Enterprise entered port on the evening of the 8th.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] nickm2 13 years ago

I am re-reading Lundstrom's 'The First Team' & I found out that "Big-E"'s destination (Wake) was within range of landbased Japanese Bombers out of the 'Gilberts'( I think?); Lex was doing exercises in a place called the Johnson Islands; were they in range of any Japanese base or anywhere near the IJ Mobile Fleet's route of travel? Also we have to consider the ever present I-boat 'screen' around the Hawaiian islands as well...

NM

PS: Yorktown was in the Atlantic doing 'neutrality patrols'; I don't remember where Hornet, Wasp or Saratoga were (one or all of them might have been at the West Coast at Bremerton or San Diego...)

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[–] CGSailor 13 years ago

Lex was doing exercises in a place called the Johnson Islands; were they in range of any Japanese base or anywhere near the IJ Mobile Fleet's route of travel?

I don't know of any chain known as the Johnson Islands. There is a Johnston Island (Actually just an Atoll).

Regardless... Lexington was no where near Johnston Island. She was on a Ferry Mission taking planes to Midway and was 500 miles out from Midway Island when they received word of the attack on Pearl. Lexington turned around, her ferry mission cancelled, and was ordered to rendezvous with another group of ships near Niihau.

This paced her very danger close to the track of Kido Butai, but she was sent to the wrong sector to search and thus was taken out of the way. Good thing too because like Enterprise, had she found them, she would have been sunk.

The Japanese were North of the islands and retreated Northwest. Lexington was to the Northwest but moved to the West to search. Enterprise was West and searched West and southwest of Hawaii.

With the location of Lexington wrong, I have my doubts about the first part of the information as well. Wake is pretty isolated and while the Japanese did have airfields in the Gilberts.... It would be a one way suicide trip considering even the longest range planes. And suicide flights by the Japanese were not til the end of the war, starting around October 1944.

Sounds like the book you are reading is not all that accurate.
EDIT: Just looked up the book and it is published by the USNI Press and has a lot of good reviews. The Naval Institute is not known for endorsing, much less publishing BS. Perhaps something is simply getting lost in translation...lol. But Lexington was transferring Marine Fighters to Midway, not conducting exercises near Johnston Atoll.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] nickm2 13 years ago

Dunno; Lundstrom's books (this one AND one about the US Carrier force during Guadacanal) are first rate books. Still, RE: Wake---I did a bit of research & found the Japanese land attack bombers flew from the Marshalls not the Gilberts---I simply didn't remember, so the fault is mine not Lundstrom's.

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[–] jwiles1 13 years ago

With the location of Lexington wrong, I have my doubts about the first part of the information as well. Wake is pretty isolated and while the Japanese did have airfields in the Gilberts.... It would be a one way suicide trip considering even the longest range planes. And suicide flights by the Japanese were not til the end of the war, starting around October 1944

The Japanese bombed Wake Island from their bases in the Marshall Islands using Medium range bombers (Nell bombers I believe). And it wasn't a suicide mission. The distance from Kwajalein to Wake is about 750 miles. The Nell has a range of 2700 miles, so its easily within range.

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[–] nickm2 11 years ago

Thanks for the additional info; eating my ration of crow right now for speaking without checking my info first...one of the drawbacks of keeping my reading material at my office instead of my home library.

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[–] Vulcans_Rule 11 years ago

There were no airfields in the Gilberts at the time. Wake was hit by 34 Nells on 8 December, a raid that destroyed most of the Marine fighters on the ground. Those same Nells bombed Wake repeatedly over the next two weeks.

Live long and prosper.

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[–] nickm2 11 years ago

Those "Nells" flew from bases in the Marshall's right?

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[–] Vulcans_Rule 11 years ago

Definitely.

Live long and prosper.

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[–] nickm2 11 years ago

Grazie, Signore!

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[–] jwiles1 13 years ago

The Wasp was in Bermuda using it as a base to conduct patrols of the western atlantic. Hornet had just been commissioned and was training in the vicinity of Norfolk. Saratoga was in San Diego.

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[–] babel_on_5 13 years ago

One thing about the B-17 and US plane production in general. The B-17 was scarce, IIRC there weren't even 180 of them yet in existance pre-PH (it's close and I'm not arguing the fact.) Secondly, as far as fighters go, most of the large shipment sent to Britain in the second half of 1941 ended up in Russia, forwarded on by the Brits. The same goes for armor and trucks in the first half of 1942. The Russkis were more than grateful.

Believing in evolution is the next to last step in advanced thinking.

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[–] DD-931 13 years ago

Why did it have to be B-17s for the patrols? Couldn't they have used Hudsons?

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[–] R011DaveAAA 13 years ago

Why did it have to be B-17s for the patrols? Couldn't they have used Hudsons?

Probably, though Hudsons had somewhat less range and there were only a few in US service at the time. I don't think the US had enough suitable aircraft in service to spare many more for Hawaii, especially given that other places, like the Philippines had a much higher priority.

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[–] Gatorman9 13 years ago

They didn't have enough long-range patrol planes of any or all types combined to do a great deal. See Daniel V. Gallery's book *U-505* wherein he explains that in order to keep exactly one land-based patrol bomber flying out of Iceland during the battle of the Atlantic airborne 24/7 over one spot of ocean required a total of 24 aircraft, and you get the idea. The trouble with that analysis of course, is that they could have probably done more than what they did with what they had, and they were called on the carpet for that.

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[–] thomasja5 13 years ago

The scene depicted in this movie referred to by the writer, failed to state one thing.

Admiral Kimmel was told by the two officers that "it's possible that a fast moving carrier task force could arrive in Hawaiian waters without any prior notice."

What wasn't shown in the movie was Kimmel's response:

"Are you saying that Japanese carriers could be rounding Diamond Head right now and you wouldn't know it?"

In response, one of the officers replied, "I think we would know before that."

If I were Admiral Kimmel, I think I would have really be worried had I been told this.

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