MovieChat Forums > MASH (1970) Discussion > THIS IS WHY I HATE ROBERT ALTMAN

THIS IS WHY I HATE ROBERT ALTMAN

posted 12 years ago by natalie_hardy-997-307193
47 replies | jump to latest

Why oh why do I keep falling for the same trick?

I'm going along - living my life - and I see something like ‘AFI 100’ or ‘Best Movies on topic XYZ’ - and one of Robert Altman's movies is in the pile.

And I think – “But I hate Robert Altman!” He's a terrible director with ONE shot in his bag of tricks (PUSH IN - PUSH IN - NOW PULL BACK!) No talent for changing an actor's range or help tell the story. Just Push in with the freakin' camera and then pull back.

Then I think - But how bad could it be? I've never watched MASH - perhaps I should.

So I did.

And this - is why I hate Robert Altman.

His movies are not narrative stories – and this one is no different. It's a loosely weaved bunch of slapstick skits where misogynistic guys sexually harass every female in sight, tell dick jokes and treat a young Korean boy as a slave. If they had only dropped the N word – the rainbow of racism and sexism would be complete.

I can think of 1000 ways to show the degradation of war and what it does to the human spirit – how humor is a tool for survival. By the end I wished a these a-holes would take a hint from the theme song!!!

And the movie’s all time most WTF moment - why did Hot Lips suddenly become a cheerleader at the end?

[–] franzkabuki 12 years ago

Oh yeah, the dreaded "N word"... now that would really have made the head explode with all the unbridled politically correct little sensibilities mercilessly frustrated.

And Hot Lips became a cheerleader because she learned her lesson and figured out it was better to try and fit in with the boys. Shouldn´t be that difficult to understand.

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

[–] natalie_hardy-997-307193 12 years ago

"unbridled politically correct little sensibilities mercilessly frustrated" - wow! Did you think that one up with the word genie? It sounds like a bad haiku poem.

“And Hot Lips became a cheerleader because she learned her lesson and figured out it was better to try and fit in with the boys.”

I don’t doubt that folks like you who see the movie think that – but the fact is that she didn’t have a ‘lesson’ to learn.

[–] franzkabuki 12 years ago

"She didn´t have a ´lesson´ to learn".

She didn´t? Well, she learned it anyway. Couldn´t be bad.

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

[–] collin-reid 12 years ago

Yes, I know you are disappointed for the lack of N words but they call the Fred Williamson character Spearchucker Jones.

That seems pretty bad...

CR

[–] franzkabuki 12 years ago

Now how does a lad get to be as righteous as this anyway? Is there possibly some Ludovico Clinic Of Political Correctness out there that could perhaps soothe my extravagantly insatiable lust for the "N word" as well as all other kinds of racist, misogynist, homophobic and altogether EVIL parlance and behaviour?

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

[–] mmserrano4 9 years ago

Your signature is wrong he actually said facts are stubborn things, it was a slip-up and he corrected himself right after. And he was quoting John Adams.

Communism was just a Red herring!

[–] Druffmaul 8 years ago

It doesn't matter if he meant to say it or not. The fact is, Reagan did in fact say "Facts are stupid things."

[–] mmserrano4 8 years ago

It's an incomplete truth. Selectively editing the truth to make it more palatable, marketable, or popular is dishonesty seen most commonly in our "news" media today. Try your luck there.

Those seven years of MacGyver finally payed off

[–] Druffmaul 8 years ago

Almost every quote is "an incomplete truth." It's always one little sentence extracted from a paragraph that was part of a huge speech or whatever, taken out of context. This one was a Freudian slip that's pretty amusing to folks who think Reagan was a bit of a dunderhead and a lout. Deal with it.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Druffmaul 8 years ago

...you refuse to acknowledge that Reagan simply misused two words and realized it. You are a stubborn ass.

But I do acknowledge that. My only assertion here is that "Facts are stupid things" is in fact a statement that came directly out of Ronald Reagan's mouth, and therefore is a legitimate quote. I know you'll never accept that, because you just tried to project your own stubbornness onto me.

[–] mmserrano4 8 years ago

Literally a quote, yes, but not useful in any argument against him like you said.

Those seven years of MacGyver finally payed off

[–] Rinn13 (167) 2 years ago

Their prank on her was uncalled for, and in very poor taste.

But NOBODY in the camp liked her, not even the other women. She was a stuck up, insufferable know-it-all bitch that no one got along with.

So yes, she DID have a "lesson to learn". That just shouldn't have been the way to learn it. Then again, talking with her or trying to reason with her clearly didn't work. In the end, the gags in the film were played for laughs. That's it. Trying to read or project deeper "intent" is pointless. Trying to slap present day viewpoints on a film from 1970 is also pointless.

[–] nelliewilson 12 years ago

"and treat a young Korean boy as a slave."

Hahaha. The Korean boy made martinis. Not exactly slave labor. And he wasn't being forced. If real slaves would only be so lucky.

" The rug really tied the room together, did it not? "

[–] Ace_Spade 8 years ago

They also tried to prevent the kid from getting sent into combat. So, yeah, he's making them martinis, but they treat him as one of their own and try not to get him killed.

[–] Suskis 12 years ago

What war? We don't even hear a bang for the whole movie (besides the one during the boring football match)

'What has been affirmed without proof can also be denied without proof.' (Euclid)

[–] franzkabuki 12 years ago

We did hear some bang from the loudspeakers, too, didn´t we?

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

[–] kassandra227 12 years ago

The movie was about the people; not about gunfire and explosions which, so some people, are the only mark of movie making.

"we'll make our own tripods ... ours will have four legs" - Oliver, Scary Movie 4

[–] jk90us (7177) 17 days ago

Football match was great. 😊

[–] DreTam2000 12 years ago

I much prefer his older films like McCabe & Mrs Miller and The Long Kiss Goodnight to those more recent...

I'm a bit confused here. I just had a look at the Director's resume and could not locate one of the films you mention here. Could you direct me to the film you speak of called The Long Kiss Goodnight? I'm not sure it was listed in his resume.

I'm not a control freak, I just like things my way

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ExplorerDS6789 12 years ago

What irks me is that Altman went against Ring Lardner's screenplay, and it was a good screenplay too, and just let the actors ad-lib to their hearts' content. He just set up the cameras and said, "say whatever the hell you want."

"It's a loosely weaved bunch of slapstick skits where misogynistic guys sexually harass every female in sight, tell dick jokes and treat a young Korean boy as a slave. If they had only dropped the N word – the rainbow of racism and sexism would be complete."

To be fair, that wasn't all Altman's idea, it came from the MASH book where, believe it or not, Hawkeye, Trapper and Duke are even bigger scumbags than they were in the movie.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] max-silver 11 years ago

Indeed. It was the only aspect of the movie that won an Academy Award.

Lardner disowned the movie for how little they stuck to it. Wonder if he accepted the Oscar.

[–] HowYaLikeDemApplesWill 11 years ago

If the Academy voters didn't like the movie version, whether it "stuck" to the screenplay or not, Lardner would never have won the Oscar for Best Screenplay.

It is pretty common for authors of novels to not be happy with how Hollywood has turned their baby into a movie: they didn't stick to the story, they trimmed parts of the book that don't translate well to the screen, etc...

It is also fairly common that there is often tension between screenwriters and directors, in that the ultimate vision for a movie is in the hands of the director, not the screenwriter. Also, many directors are also themselves screenwriters, so will then apply their own "edits" to a screenplay, whether they wrote it or not.

Here is what the author of the book MASH Richard Hooker had to say in April 1977:

I thought the movie was great but the television thing isn't my kind of humor. It's someone else's idea of what medical humor is supposed to be.

So apparently the author of the original material that the screenplay was based upon, thought it was great.

Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

[–] max-silver 11 years ago

About 80% of the movie was ad libbed.

[–] HowYaLikeDemApplesWill 11 years ago

Interesting, never heard the 80% before, although it is clear with the overlapping dialogue much is ad-libbed.

From Wikipedia, although without citation:

The screenplay, by Ring Lardner, Jr., is radically different from the original novel; in the DVD audio commentary, Altman describes the novel as "pretty terrible" and somewhat "racist" (the only major black character has the nickname "Spearchucker"). He claims that the screenplay was used only as a springboard. However, the screenplay itself reveals that, while there is some improvisation in the film, and although Altman moved major sequences around, most sequences are in the screenplay.

Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

[–] GBDaddy 11 years ago

Frankly, I could give a rat's patooty about Altman's style or abilities. This film was about the characters and actors, as someone else pointed out.

I don't know factually (apart from what I'm guessing as true from the above post) how much was ad-libbed, but the film certainly felt like there was a fair amount of improv. Sutherland and Gould are certainly capable of good improv (as are a few other actors). Duvall, of course, has serious acting skills and likability...although I don't recall any particular improv history.

Although Kellerman's character (and/or her) got on my nerves early on, I ultimately enjoyed the character in the end. Maybe she just has one of those faces and styles you grow into.

I've watched this film many times over the last 2 decades. It seems that with each watching (and as I age), I find different things funny. The humor is not simply slapstick and crude. There's is actually some quick wit that some might not pick up on.

[–] shieldsdraeger 8 years ago

Altman has said that the screenplay convinced him to make the picture. So he has given
Lardner due credit. And if Ring was so upset about the changes he could have refused
the Oscar.

[–] porfle 11 years ago

I finally read Lardner's screenplay yesterday, and I think Altman did him a big favor. I found it pretty stodgy and dull compared to Altman's loose improv approach which breathed life and vitality into the story.

hkfilmnews.blogspot.com
porfle.blogspot.com

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] osopestoso 11 years ago

Altman was a commie athie prick who hated the country in which he made millions of dollars.

"They sucked his brains out!"

[–] jk90us (7177) 17 days ago

Oh noooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!

I say kill the bastard!!

Oh. Wait.

He’s already dead.

You feel better?

[–] max-silver 11 years ago

Apparently, he made the movie the way he did because he went to Saigon and was "disgusted" at what he saw.

What did he see? Ground troops for the first time ever?

Because he was a co-pilot of a B-24 Liberator and flew over Dutch East Indies and Borneo.

[–] roger1 (3626) 17 days ago

His movies are not narrative stories – and this one is no different. It's a loosely weaved bunch of slapstick skits where misogynistic guys sexually harass every female in sight,

---

...but most of the women don't act like they are being harrassed..they very much and very consensually jump right into the sack with the men:

Hot Lips with Frank Burns(Robert Duvall)
Hot Lips with Duke (Tom Skerrit)
Lt. Dish (Jo Ann Pflug) with Hawkeye(Donald Sutherland) even as she agreed to Hawkeye's directive to cure the impotency of "Painless" the Dentist(John Schuck.)
The gal found in bed with the base's addled-seeming but quite sharp Henry Blake ("So resign your ggg--damn commission!")

A point is made along the way that many of these women -- and some of the men -- have spouses at home, but that "War is hell, death is everywhere" and they might as well have sex for "relief" thousands of miles away from those spouses.

This was considered immoral in some quarters in "hip" 1970...but who is to say this wasn't EXACTLY how it was as far back as the FORTIES and WWII?

MASH the movie is Exhibit A -- much more so than the comparatively sit-commish Blazing Saddles -- about how today's more sensitive Americans(perhaps ages 18 to 40?) absolutely REFUSE to go along with the amoral and mean comedy tropes of the "more hip counterculture years."

A central irony of MASH the movie remains that while it was made by and starred very "liberal" people -- the film had a very male-centric point of view that could be construed as "conservative" or even "reactionary" today but again...the movie came from the LEFT.

CONT

[–] roger1 (3626) 17 days ago

The movie is gleefully "all sides on all things." Colonel Frank Burns is a villain; Colonel Henry Blake is a good guy. Our main guys target women for sex -- the women target them back. Our heroes protect their Korean "servant" and save the life of a Japanese(?) baby who otherwise would have likely died. Our guys respect a black former "ringer" of a football player(Muy Macho Fred Williamson) who has been affectionately named "Spearchucker" yet lords over the white men in his midst. Our guys are rough and tough on the football field(against other men) and demanding professionals in the bloody, life-or-death operating room (where a nurse is requested to be good and "doesn't get her tits in the way").

Its all over the place, but perhaps summed up in the final line of the movie, right before the movie cuts to black and disappears:

"Goddamn Army...."

Delivered with all the mysterious heartfelt rage by Bobby Troup in his greatest performance.