MovieChat Forums > Kelly's Heroes (1970) Discussion > Sherman vs Tiger

Sherman vs Tiger

posted 14 years ago by colin-barron
26 replies | jump to latest

In "Kelly's Heroes" there is a scene where Oddball says that a Sherman tank could only knock out a Tiger tank by hitting it at "point blank range in the ass". This statement would be correct for a Sherman armed with the short-barrelled 75mm M3 gun. However the Shermans used in "Kelly's Heroes" were fitted with the later long -barrelled 76mm M1 guns. In fact they were a version of the Sherman unique to the Yugoslavian Army which used the later 76mm gun but fitted in the earlier style of turret found in the 75mm gun versions.

In one scene Oddball does in fact mention that his tanks have a "76".

The 76mm M1 gun could in fact penetrate the frontal armour of a Tiger at 100 yards range so all the tactics to get a shot into the rear of the Tigers were not needed.

[–] davidmurray51 14 years ago

A 76mm gun may have been able to penetrate the front of a Tiger at 100 yds but the chances of getting so close to the front of a Tiger were almost zero.A Tiger could knock out a Sherman at 1000 yds so it was definatly best to approach from the rear or at least the side.

[–] darryl-tahirali 11 years ago

A 76mm gun may have been able to penetrate the front of a Tiger at 100 yds but the chances of getting so close to the front of a Tiger were almost zero. - davidmurray51

Agreed. Tigers were armed with the 88 mm gun, an analogue of the same-size anti-aircraft gun. The 88 was one of the most lethal field weapons of the war. According to the specs, and depending on the type of shell fired, the Tiger's 88 would have had a greater than 90 percent hit probability at 1000 meters, let alone what it would do at 100 meters.

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"We hear very little, and we understand even less." - Refugee in Casablanca

[–] nickm2 11 years ago

Reminds me of an anecdote told by British Weapons Expert, Ian Hogg; In order to increase the range of their medium artillery, the Germans took a 105mm shellcasing & put an 88mm projectile into it. In reaction to the thought that the shell's size being reduced from 105mm to 'only' 88mm resulted in a loss of destructive force, somebody said, in effect, being hit by an "88" was more than destructive enough.

Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

[–] Christopher-B 10 years ago

Some of the reports I read on the accuracy of the Tiger's gun said that it could fire 10 rounds through a 30cm circle at 1,000 meters. That 10 rounds through a 12" circle at 1,100 yards. Even at that distance, the 88mm gun on the Tiger could penetrate most allied vehicles and had the accuracy to hit where it aimed. One of the U.S> armor groups removed the white stars from the front of their M4 tanks because the Tigers and Panthers were using them as an aiming spot and most of their destroyed tanks had holes through the white star.

[–] npanou 10 years ago

Yeah, but in the film they are cornered in a tiny village with narrow roads and fields of fire under 100 meters (save that main stretch of road in the center, which they could just avoid). In other words, they would be in effective in range whenever they had eyes on the tigers.

"World needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door"

[–] max-silver 14 years ago

One thing they got wrong was the fact that the paint shell would still have destroyed the Tiger, as it still had a projectile end.

[–] R011DaveAAA 14 years ago

Tanks carried several different types of ammunition for their main gun. A 76 mm armed Sherman at that time would carry high explosive (HE), armour piercing (AP), and smoke. An AP round was mostly solid metal with a very small amount of explosive. That would penetrate a Tiger at close range, but would have room for little if any paint. HE and smoke could carry enough paint to make a pretty picture, as depicted in the movie, but even with explosive substituted for paint, couldn't penetrate a Tiger's armour.

[–] max-silver 14 years ago

There was less armour over the fuel tank, but it is likely that an HE shell wouldn't penetrate that.

[–] sonofagun 14 years ago

Hey, enough with the negative waves already!

[–] max-silver 14 years ago

I've been thinkin' positive waves all day!

[–] sonofagun 14 years ago

Good, now sit back, relax, catch some rays, and have some wine.

[–] doccarbon 13 years ago

"I've had nothin' but positive thoughts about that damn bridge ever since we left!"

[–] batjunkie 14 years ago

Oddball ain't gonna lock horns with no Tigers.

[–] BuddyLove63 14 years ago

Oddball even says "the Tiger has only one weak point, that's it's ass."

In actual fact the rear plate of the Tiger I was 80mm. Same thickness as the upper hull sides.

The 'weakest' point of the Tiger I to actually hit with an AP shell would be the lower hull sides just behind the wheels. If you could get in a shot just above the wheels and just below the upper hull sides (tricky of course) it's 'only' 60 mm thick there.

The rear plate actually slopes inwards somewhat so that would make it slightly stronger than the upper hull sides which didn't slope at all seeing as they are both 80mm thick. The point is, the 'ass' of a Tiger I is certainly not it's weak point. They even repeat this myth in serious documentaries.

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] pete36 13 years ago

Most Tigers were not destroyed by enemy fire on the battlefield but had to be abandoned by their own crew mainly due to mechanical failures as this massive beast was a bit too advanced for the technical possibilities of its time. Also towing away posed a bit of a problem ! And don't forget its massive fuel consumption, another big worry.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] nickm2 13 years ago

As for the last bit (needing extensive scouting) I seem to recall from Otto Carius' book "Tigers in the Mud", the commander had to do ground recon to see the terrain & learn the best features to fight from...Carius served in the 'Leningrad' front that had few roads & lots of swamps & waterways but he still did VERY well.

[–] mikekrit62 13 years ago

Here is a great video, but appears to be incomplete:

Tiger vs Sherman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3slnEXOoSo&feature=related

[–] earthman34 11 years ago

While many tanks were abandoned due to mechanical issues the Tiger was not the most troublesome tank the Germans operated. Many more were abandoned due to fuel shortages or minor damage that could have been repaired if they had time to recover them, which they often did not, since the German army was mostly in retreat after 1943.

[–] brandon-caplan 11 years ago

Shooting the Tiger in the ass with a 76mm AP round would have been infinitely more effective than shooting it with the same round in a frontal assault - since tanks are designed primarily to attack, the strongest armor is on the front of the vehicle. You NEVER want your enemy behind you in combat (no matter if you are a rifleman, a sailor, a pilot, a tanker, etc.), so a tanker would do his/her (there is anecdotal evidence of Russian women serving as unofficial tankers) not to expose his/her vehicle's ass to enemy fire - to retreat, you'd back the hell up, not turn around! In Somalia, many of our special forces guys opted not to wear all of their armor plating - they omitted the back plate, partially as a reminder to never let an enemy get behind them (I think the other reason was to save weight/improve mobility).

So, in short: shooting a Tiger in its ass would be the easiest PRACTICAL method of destroying it (since the ass presents such a good target). Shermans tended to employ their numerical advantage to get the drop on the Germans (the Tiger's turret couldn't traverse terribly quickly, although if you read Anthony Walton and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's [yes, THAT Kareem Abdul-Jabbar] book Brothers in Arms about the 761st Tank Battalion, some of the vets interviewed recalled that the Tiger could spin around on its axis rather quickly [or something like that]).

[–] nickm2 11 years ago

(the Tiger's turret couldn't traverse terribly quickly...)

According to some chap on youtube who was crawling around the guts of a refurbished Tiger 1, it took about 60 seconds for a full 360 degree powered traverse-but like you also said, a Tiger driver can help things by working the treads so the hull can be slewed towards the target.

Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

[–] brandon-caplan 11 years ago

I forget the term that was used by the vets, but I think it was some sort of a cat metaphor (appropriately enough). Sorry if I can't quote - not terribly sure how to on here.

[–] Christopher-B 10 years ago

When the driver makes the Tiger spin on the spot by making the tracks move in opposite directions, its called the Whitman Maneuver. It allows the whole tank to spin around rapidly to aim at a new or moving target.

The Panther had issues with track and transmission damage and premature wear when doing that maneuver. The Tiger may have had some issues with premature drive train wear when doing the Whitman Maneuver too often.

[–] Buckaroo-Robot-Monster 12 years ago

It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the .....

[–] richie-120 10 years ago

I too play world of tanks.