MovieChat Forums > Le cercle rouge (1970) Discussion > Three Questions

Three Questions

posted 18 years ago by visualsynergy
5 replies | jump to latest

1. Who was Jansen referring to when he said that he just wanted those two beasts to go down (or something to that effect)?

2. Was Mattei really a fence AND a cop, or was he just posing as a fence to get Volonte's character? After they used that quote again about nobody being innocent, it would have made a lot more sense if he really was corrupt.

3. Volonte's character tells Mattei that Corey would have stayed in the house if he really knew who Mattei was...why would he have done that?

[–] freudified_n_funkified 18 years ago

1. Jansen was referring to the animals, insects and reptile hallucinations that were crawling out of his closet and all over him while he had the DTs. The heist gave him a reason to stay sober and preserve himself.

2. As was my understanding, Mattei was only a cop posing as a fence. The thieves had to rely on Santi, the nightclub owner Mattei was leaning on to rat them out, to hook them up with a new fence after Corey's old boss persuaded their original fence to turn them away. Santi, in an attempt to save his son who was arrested by Mattei, sets up the meet. It plays into the fatalism of the story, as everybody starts to converge and intersect to play out their last hands. Interesting if he was corrupt, but it didn't look like it.

3. I don't know. Corey might have just plugged Mattei right there had Vogel told him he was a cop, rather than running. It might have been smarter than just running for it, but the other officers were closing in anyway so there weren't a lot of outs. They had a better chance just making a break for it. So in a way, Vogel saved Mattei's life. Again tying into the fatalistic nature of the story:

Vogel escapes and meets Corey and that brings the heat down on his heist where there otherwise wouldn't have been any. Everything would have gone according to plan - except that without Vogel, and Vogel knowing Jansen and his rare marskmanship that was central to the heist going over, Corey wouldn't have been able to pull it off in the first place. But Mattei never would have found Vogel had Corey's old boss not cooled their first fence, forcing them to Santi, and then leading to the thieves' collective demise. The movie is paced so slowly that you don't necessarily see all the dots connect right in front of your face, but it's definitely intricate in it's set up and pay off. Great film.

[–] ndorward 17 years ago

2. As was my understanding, Mattei was only a cop posing as a fence. The thieves had to rely on Santi, the nightclub owner Mattei was leaning on to rat them out, to hook them up with a new fence after Corey's old boss persuaded their original fence to turn them away. Santi, in an attempt to save his son who was arrested by Mattei, sets up the meet. It plays into the fatalism of the story, as everybody starts to converge and intersect to play out their last hands. Interesting if he was corrupt, but it didn't look like it.

This can't be the right explanation because (1) Santi sets up the meeting with Mattei BEFORE pressure is applied to him via his son and (2) neither Santi nor Mattei at this point know that Vogel is involved in the heist; they only (it is implied) know that Corey is involved.

In other words there are a lot of ellipses in the plot at this point. My interpretation (having just rewatched the film) is: Santi is willing to rat out Corey (surely he cannot fail to recognize the voice of the new fence on the phone? so he must be aware he's setting up a trap for Corey) but is still unwilling to rat out Vogel. Of course, he's unaware at this point that by betraying Corey he's betraying Vogel too.

Other gaps: it's not clear exactly the extent to which Rico is involved in the betrayal. He certainly commands the original fence to renege on the agreement to deal with the jewels; but it's not made clear whether he also tells the police that Corey did it. I think we have to assume he does though--why would he refrain from taking his full revenge? How would he know that Mattei was going to pose as a fence?

Vogel escapes and meets Corey and that brings the heat down on his heist where there otherwise wouldn't have been any.

I think in the end that exact causality is elusive in this film--I guess that's the lesson of the faux-Buddhist quote at the start--but if you agree with my version above then the cops are less omniscient: they do not know, until the moment Vogel breaks into the mansion to warn Corey, that Vogel is involved; Mattei is simply conducting two separate investigations which happen to converge. -- Vogel's remark is indeed cryptic. My best guess is that Vogel & Corey are by now so close that Vogel fears that if Corey knew that the "fence" was actually the cop who's hunting Vogel down, he would try to save Vogel (by killing Mattei or doing something equally foolish).

Another loose end, which I haven't really resolved to my satisfaction, is the relationship of the prison guard to Rico. Is Rico the ultimate source of the jewellery heist plan? If not, why is the guard there exactly, shortly after Corey has robbed Rico's safe?

The plotting is very elliptical, & ultimately I'm not sure it coheres, but it really doesn't matter. A great film. I was surprised how fast the 140 minutes of the film went by on reviewing.

[–] TheManInOil 16 years ago

Now I have to watch it again. I thought the fence Santi arranged was not Mattei, but that Mattei posed as this fence at the ending.

As to the accusation that all men are guilty, I took this as a reference to the fact that even a good cop doing an honest job the best way he can is responsible for the death of hope and friendship that the criminals had established with one another. For all his justice he was the one scheming and contriving while they were legitimately making each other's lives better.

"Clothes are the enemy! Without clothes, there'd be no sickness. There'd be no war!"

[–] Conspirator_Slash 16 years ago

Mattei is an interesting figure with his cats, but he clearly has some heritage... from another well-known French cop character. Although he doesn't seem obsessed - he just does his job. I wonder if he has a crime? His boss says all men are guilty. What would be Mattei's sin? He seems a honest man to me - making a trip is not evil, it's natural.

[–] Cobra12 16 years ago

Regardless of side (good/bad)man has to commit a 'crime' in order to get what they want. The police, for example, have to potentially kill, lie, push on informats, use underhand tactics.

I think this is what he means anyway!