MovieChat Forums > Airport (1970) Discussion > Would the wild passenger who yelled be p...

Would the wild passenger who yelled be prosecuted


Let's think pre-9 11, for me as a baby boomer it's very easy, anyway it appeared that the CAPT had the situation under control and was close to having Guerrero surrender, then when a passenger comes out of the lavatory, that one out of control passenger stands and yells, "grab the briefcase, he's got a bomb"(sic) Guerrero panics and he goes into the lavatory and detonates the explosive. Would he be arrested and prosecuted? I feel he would warrant some kind of punishment for his wreckless behaviour

What does the rest of the jury say?

reply

I seriously doubt that's illegal. On the other hand, grabbing the case away from Gwen...

reply

I think either one would fall under the category of interfering with flight personnel, endangering the safety of the passengers, even assault (on Gwen). I would certainly have had him arrested had I been the Captain. (Or at least the Captain not overly worried about his pregnant girlfriend.) I think a film that makes heroes out of airline personnel and stresses the difficulties they face should have shown the consequences of disrupting the safety of the flight, and had this jerk arrested. It certainly would have been an audience-pleaser.

Notice how after the bomb explodes they show this idiot too stunned to put on his oxygen mask, and it was only thanks to the dedication of one of the stewardesses whom he'd been abusing that he was saved when she stopped to put it on his face.

Nonetheless, he deserved arrest, trial and punishment, and being banned from the airline. Think of all the witnesses only too glad to testify against him! Even the nuns, probably.

reply

I was just watching this and didn't even recognize him as the guy turning blue. He's such a schmuck he probably never even recognized that anyone had helped him.

But no, I'd say no chance can you prosecute him. His behavior was at all times appalling and he directly contributed to the explosion. But that's simply because he was a civilian panicking in a dangerous situation he knew nothing about. He didn't know it was a bomb when he grabbed the briefcase, and Gwen up until then had after all been behaving very abusively towards that old woman. Likewise yelling at the guy coming out of the can to grab the bomb -- he wasn't wrong, was he? Sure it was stupid but that's what happens when you put passengers in a suicidal bomber situation. You can't criminally punish passengers/civilians/bystanders for acting crazy in a crazy situation where they have neither the training, skill nor duty to do the right thing.

Think of it this way -- if they'd arrested him and charged him with anything, he'd be able to blame everything on the airline. They're the ones who let the stowaway on board. They're the ones who let the bomber on board. They're the ones who concocted the plan to swipe the briefcase, putting the other passengers at risk in the process. Nobody told him ahead of time what was going on.

reply

Civilians who get out of control and are abusive or dangerous on airliners are arrested all the time, and many are prosecuted. To say this clod can't be held legally accountable for his actions simply because he's a "civilian" is saying every passenger has carte blanche to behave in any destructive way they wish on board a plane, and not face any consequences.

The idea of having a guy like this arrested isn't a theoretical argument; it's what actually happens, and should.

Of course, you're right that he might sue the airline for allowing a bomber to get aboard. But that wouldn't excuse his actions or legally exonerate him.

reply

Civilians who get out of control and are abusive or dangerous on airliners are arrested all the time, and many are prosecuted. To say this clod can't be held legally accountable for his actions simply because he's a "civilian" is saying every passenger has carte blanche to behave in any destructive way they wish on board a plane, and not face any consequences.


That's not what I'm saying at all. Civilians are punished for creating their own problems, not for how they react to something outside their control.

For example, when Sully Sullenberger crash landed that flight into the Hudson river, the passengers were explicitly told to wait patiently and exit the airplane by the front. Yet some jackass(es) panicked and opened the rear doors to get out and the plane flooded and people almost drowned. Nobody was prosecuted for that because these were civilians afraid of dying. It's the airline's responsibility to control the passengers.

In virtually every plane crash where there are survivors, you'll see stories of people trampling over other passengers. They're not charged.

Same thing here. The guy's a jerk. I'm the first to admit that. But what laws did he break? He gave a briefcase back to a passenger after seeing the flight attendant try to steal it. Then he told the guy in the bathroom to grab the guy with the bomb. He had a bomb, so it's not even yelling fire in a crowded theater. This is nothing like a situation where some drunk passenger gets out of hand and causes a disruption (and the airline, remember, served him his drinks). The guy's simply reacting (badly) to a stressful situation he's not trained to deal with. If you can cite a real-life example of a passenger being prosecuted in that circumstance I'd love to see it.

reply

Then he told the guy in the bathroom to grab the guy with the bomb. He had a bomb, so it's not even yelling fire in a crowded theater.


No, it's precisely the same as yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. His actions not only contributed to a general panic by disrupting efforts to keep the situation under control, but directly interfered with -- more, subverted -- the captain's nearly-successful effort to defuse [sic] the crisis and get Guerrero to surrender peacefully. His interference was the primary contributing action to the disaster that followed. For that, he could and should have been arrested and prosecuted. He did in fact directly interfere with the captain's command -- as he also did by grabbing the briefcase away from the stewardess. Interference with a flight crew is a crime.

Your analogies about air crashes like Sullenberger's are off-target -- in those instances the disaster had already happened. That was indeed just blind panic, and there were either no grounds for prosecution, or no purpose in prosecuting people who failed to obey strict evacuation rules. Those examples are entirely different from and irrelevant to deliberately interfering with the actions of the captain and crew in trying to control the situation and prevent it from escalating into a disaster.

Civilians are punished for creating their own problems, not for how they react to something outside their control.


How is someone hampering the actions of the crew within the confines of an airliner doing nothing more than "creating their own problems"? They're creating problems for everyone on board -- in any confined craft (an airliner, ship, life raft, etc.) there is no such thing as individuals acting in their own self-contained little universes. Their actions affect everyone.

As for "something outside their control", that pretty much pertains to almost everything that goes on on an airliner. The notion that this factor somehow relieves people of any responsibility for their actions is preposterous. Panic is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. The specific circumstances have to be taken into account. People panicking while evacuating a sinking or burning airplane may be excusable. A passenger deliberately interfering with the crew of an airliner, for whatever reason, and endangering thereby the lives and safety of everyone else aboard, is committing a prosecutable offense. His were criminal acts and he should have been arrested and prosecuted.

reply

Your analogies about air crashes like Sullenberger's are off-target -- in those instances the disaster had already happened.


No, the plane wasn't filling up with water until passengers in the back of the plane panicked and opened the door despite being told not to. Only then did the water start rushing in, endangering the lives of some of the passengers and risking the sinking of the aircraft. Nobody was arrested or charged with anything for doing that.

You seem to think that a "prosecutable offense" is anything that doesn't comport with what the flight crew wants the passengers to do. That's not how it works. You're focusing too much on the facts -- that this jerk messed things up -- and not enough on the rationale behind why he should be criminally punished.

You're wrong about the "fire in a crowded theater" analogy. It refers to falsely yelling fire, and thus causing a panic that the person yelling knew or should have known would result. If, on the other hand, there actually is a fire in the crowded theater, then a theatergoer is well within their rights to yell "fire" whether that causes a stampede or not.

reply

No, the plane wasn't filling up with water until passengers in the back of the plane panicked and opened the door despite being told not to. Only then did the water start rushing in, endangering the lives of some of the passengers and risking the sinking of the aircraft.


So, the plane crash-landing in the river after losing both its engines due to multiple bird strikes wasn't a disaster?

You seem to think that a "prosecutable offense" is anything that doesn't comport with what the flight crew wants the passengers to do. That's not how it works. You're focusing too much on the facts -- that this jerk messed things up -- and not enough on the rationale behind why he should be criminally punished.


Not so. Not every action is something that can be prosecuted, and some that could be probably shouldn't be. But you go too far to the other extreme -- excusing responsibility for any behavior if its rationale falls into some broad, extra-legal category of a person supposedly not being in complete control of himself.

Yes, I am focusing on the facts (since when is that wrong?) -- which would include any justification for a person's actions. The loudmouth made a bad situation much worse. His actions led directly to Guerrero's (a) getting the bomb back, and (b) running into the bathroom where he exploded the device and nearly caused the deaths of everyone aboard. And these in turn came about because of the man's interference with the flight crew, which is against the law -- no ifs, ands or buts. He certainly did commit prosecutable acts and he certainly should have been prosecuted.

As to his so-called "panic" -- was he panicking when he grabbed the briefcase from Gwen and returned it to Guerrero? Of course not. What, at that point, was there for him to be panicked about? He was just butting into something he had no business getting involved with. What right did he have to stop the crew from doing anything?

Regarding the "fire in the crowded theater" bit, my argument is that there was no fire until he interfered, committing actions that directly caused the "fire" -- the explosion. There was the threat of fire -- but the real fire only came about when he enabled the bomber to carry out his plan. However, I will agree that parsing the exact point at which this analogous "fire" began is a matter of interpretation.

Even so, in the end it's not very relevant. The crucial fact is that all would have been well had he not interfered. Panic was not a factor in his grabbing the briefcase and returning it to Guerrero (and "being excited" isn't an excusable rationale), and while it may have been a factor in his "Grab him, he's got a bomb!" moment, he was still interfering with the crew, he directly caused Guerrero to set off the bomb, and this in turn nearly killed everyone on board. In any case, panic is not a legal justification for interfering with a flight crew in the performance of their duties, or of endangering the lives of the passengers and crew. It is not "insanity". In a trial it may be admissible to show his state of mind but there is nothing in the law that excuses criminal acts because of some alleged "panic". At best, he might claim mitigation, though in this case it'd be a pretty flimsy defense.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]

Yep, I see you've posted a few times in this thread and I agree with your thoughts. From my perspective it would be damn near impossible to get a criminal conviction against the guy for all the reasons that have been raised. (I was using "facts" to distinguish from "law" -- i.e., talking about what people did rather than how their actions might be interpreted as criminal).

reply

From my perspective it would be damn near impossible to get a criminal conviction against the guy for all the reasons that have been raised.


Most of those reasons that have been raised are not really on point, but leave that aside. It may or may not have been "damn near impossible" to get a conviction. (In my view it was very likely he'd be convicted, especially since most of the people on board would have testified to the facts, which were against him.) But likelihood of conviction is irrelevant. He broke the law and endangered lives and needed to be prosecuted.

(I was using "facts" to distinguish from "law" -- i.e., talking about what people did rather than how their actions might be interpreted as criminal).


I'm really not sure what you mean here, but the facts would certainly be against him -- people saw that the Captain was on the verge of successfully disarming Guerrero when the jerk interfered. And you now seem to be conceding that he did break the law by interfering.

The case against him was overwhelming, both on the facts and on the law. Whether he'd be convicted no one could predict. But the duty to prosecute him for his dangerous actions is absolute.

reply

Let me leave you with this - remember that recent Korean ferry disaster? The one where the passengers, mostly high school students, were ordered by the crew to remain in their rooms and as a result drowned when the ship sank? Clearly, if some of those kids had defied crew orders and gone up top they might have survived.

They would clearly have been interfering with the crew if they'd done that. They had been ordered by the captain to stay where they were. Nobody in their right mind would have prosecuted them for saving their own lives, however. And a few lucky kids actually did that and managed to live when their classmates died.

The passengers on Sully's flight weren't prosecuted. None of the survivors on that ferry were prosecuted. It all goes to the reasonableness of the orders, the stress of the situation, the latitude given to untrained civilians in life-or-death situations . . . .

In fact if anything, there would have been a criminal investigation into the bomber, a civil suit filed against the airline (and possibly the pilot), and only then, in its defense, might the airline have raised this jerk's behavior as a mitigating factor.

reply

To both your posts, robynari....

The situation was not under control as long as Guerrero had the bomb, and a reasonable person under those circumstances could have decided that the guy coming out of the bathroom had a better chance at that moment of getting the bomb than the pilot had.


No one said the situation was under control, at least in the sense of the crisis being over, but the Captain had calmed Guerrero down and he was clearly about to hand the briefcase over when the man walked out of the bathroom and idiot-boy yelled to grab the guy.

To the claim that a reasonable person might decide the man coming out of the bathroom had a better chance: (a) this can be discredited because Guerrero was plainly about to turn over the bomb, and (b) the bathroom guy was obviously unaware of what was happening, so it was demonstrably not reasonable to believe an untrained individual, chancing into a situation of which he had no knowledge and at best only a couple of seconds to act, and with only a loudmouthed nobody yelling something at him, would have had a better chance to disarm the bomber than the pilot.

In any case this is largely moot. By abruptly screaming about grabbing Guerrero, the jerk was interfering with the Captain's efforts to resolve the situation and deliberately disobeying the Captain's order that everyone sit down and remain quiet. What followed was directly his fault.

Except at the time, he observed Gwen being rather bitchy to Guerrero's seat mate and then that Guerrero's suitcase was stolen.


So what? That didn't confer any right on him to intervene in her actions.

The idea that flight crews can act with carte blanche isn't just theory either.


Um, which as you wrote it means that it's a fact that flight crews have carte blanche to act as they wish. I suspect you may have meant the opposite, but whatever, I don't agree with that. But they do have the right to order passengers what to do aboard the plane, especially in matters of safety, where their authority is pretty much absolute. Passengers have no right to interfere with a crew's operation of an airplane -- period.

It would make it practically impossible for him to be prosecuted since his defense would be that 1) before he knew that the suitcase was armed, he relied on the airline and security to keep dangerous devices off the plane, and their case against him would be "sorry, but we screwed up, so you're toast" and 2)after he knew that the suitcase had a bomb inside, he should have relied on the crew to retrieve the bomb and/or for Guerrero to surrender it when Guerrero was desperate and homicidal enough to bring it on the flight and the authorities weren't competent enough to prevent him from doing so.


He might raise these points in his defense, but they would not preclude a prosecution of him for his own acts. You're conflating what his crimes were with his defense, or with his claims in his own potential lawsuit against the airline for negligence and so forth. Even granting the validity of your points 1 and 2, this has nothing to do with whether he could or should be prosecuted.

Your #1 would be an argument in his defense or in a lawsuit. Number 2, however, has no validity because the crew was in the midst of getting Guerrero to surrender when he intervened and blew the whole thing -- literally.

In other words the case against the jerk is that he refused to rely on people who had proven themselves unreliable.


No, the case against him is that he wrecked whatever chance there was to get Guerrero to surrender peacefully by deliberately disobeying the Captain's orders and interfering with his command during an emergency. And the crew themselves were reliable -- the screw-up in letting Guerrero aboard was on the ground personnel, not the flight crew.

reply

[deleted]

Excellent response hobnob53--and I agree with your analysis. It's reckless endangerment.

reply

Thanks, jonjax71. It's always disappointing when movies show some trouble-maker getting off scot-free because they want to show the "good people" acting mercifully...or weakly.

reply

[deleted]

What you say may or may not be true. The fact remains the guy broke the law by interfering with the crew. Most of what you said is the kind of thing he might raise in his defense. Whether it's legitimate is for a jury to decide. (I don't think it is.) But none of this means he can't, or shouldn't, be prosecuted.

For reasons I stated above, I also don't think the case against the guy is as hopeless as you and truther do. Quite the opposite. I think it's likely he'd be convicted, in view of the evidence of what was taking place aboard the plane before he opened his big mouth. Again, he's the proximate cause of the real disaster that followed.

reply

[deleted]

If you read the original novel (which I have, more than a few times) they follow each of the passengers who end up being the ones who are involved with the incident. The guy who grabs the briefcase is depicted as a misogynistic a**hole who dislikes women in general and women in any position of authority in particular and in the novel, he sees Gwen grabbing Guerrero's briefcase as an intolerable situation that needs to be remedied.

reply