MovieChat Forums > Mary Tyler Moore (1970) Discussion > too mean to ted?

too mean to ted?

posted 12 years ago by marielapenn
26 replies | jump to latest

i think starting in season 5 and 6 sometimes they were too mean to him. and it's fine when it's sue ann because she really bites back and insults them first a lot of the time- but ted genuinely, sincerely liked everyone in that office and considered them his friends. they were his ONLY friends, the only people he had at his wedding even

sure, he was dumb and self-absorbed but there's a difference between that and being mean like sue ann, who i'm not convinced really liked any of them except for lou. but ted did and he was never mean to them!

also, i don't like when they act like his friend to his face and then say he's a terrible guy behind his back. because they don't seem insincere when they're being nice to him (except murray i guess), so which is it?

i think that's the one little flaw in the writing occasionally later on. either they like him or they don't. and there were WAY too many episodes where they seem like real friends for them to suddenly talk about him like they hate him in the later seasons. it's weird, like where did this exaggerated hate come from, it wasn't there before. not on that level anyway

i mean, i think sue ann is justified in disliking, but ted really thinks they're friends- i mean come on. especially mary, who never seemed to actively dislike ted at all until sometime in season 6, where suddenly she randomly says things like she can't stand him. really?

[–] gpicto 12 years ago

I think a part of it is that Ted Knight was a nice man and it showed, through his portrayal of Ted Baxter.

Strange that, when the writers finally started giving Mary some zingers, Ted was her main target. Ted tells Mary his father left when Ted was age 2 and she says he should have left 3 years sooner. Or Mary can't get her stereo working.

Mary: The salesman said any FOOL could do it.

(doorbell rings)

Mary: Who is it?
Ted: It's Ted.
Mary: Help has arrived.

Marriage is between one man and one woman, to the exclusion of all others.

[–] marielapenn 12 years ago

yeah, i don't know- frankly, i think having her say stuff like that is out of character

she was never like that towards him until season 6 and at that point imo, it's too late to suddenly change her personality so that she's more like murray regarding ted.

actually, i think in the earlier years they showed more of ted warranting that kind of treatment. if they're going to be mean to him they ought to at least make it justified

[–] gpicto 12 years ago

IMHO, Mary probably went to the writers and demanded more funny lines. It seemed everyone else got funny lines except her, and I think she probably got tired of everyone getting laughs but Mary.

Yea, the earlier Ted was a bigger buffoon and deserving of insults lol

Marriage is between one man and one woman, to the exclusion of all others.

[–] ElRaisuli 12 years ago

It also might have been a reaction to the success of "Rhoda," which had higher ratings than Mary for a while. Rhoda was a much less reserved character than Mary and that might have made Rhoda appear "stronger." Perhaps they felt that was the key to "Rhoda's" success in the ratings, so they may have pushed Mary in that direction, too.

I think though, as was mentioned, that it also may have been a reaction to the introduction of Sue Ann. Mary had not really had an antagonist on the show before, so she had to be able to verablly defend herself against Sue Ann. Some of this new personality trait was directed at Ted, who was an occasional ally of Sue Ann's.

[–] marielapenn 12 years ago

you know, you're probably right. i bet it did have something to do with trying to make mary funnier

but frankly, i think starting to do that 5 years into the show's run is too late. i'm just watching it now for the first time and i'm used to mary as she was, and i think it's really noticeable that all of a sudden she sometimes says random things that make it seem like she hates ted when she never was like that before. and then in other scenes she doesn't seem to hate him again, so it's inconsistent too

[–] alanjobe 12 years ago

I know he could be annoying and selfish at times, but I felt sorry for Ted when Mary didn't include him in her dinner party for Congresswoman Gettys. As seen with Rhoda's unexpected guest, she could've made room for one more.

Al - Alicia
An - Andrew
Jo - Joseph
Be - Benjamin

[–] Agent_X27 12 years ago

The final episode actually annoyed me because it seemed implied that the WJM news staff blamed Ted for all their problems.

[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

'The final episode actually annoyed me because it seemed implied that the WJM news staff blamed Ted for all their problems'
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I didn't get that. what dialogue implied such?

[–] fa6947 12 years ago

re-watching S2 on MeTV currently, Murray's constant unending barbs at Ted really do start to get annoying and aren't very funny either.

[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

I know, it made Murray seem like the obnoxious one. It worked better with Murray and Sue Ann.

[–] RRozsa 11 years ago

I always felt that in Murray's case, his snark was rooted in the frustration and envy of a middle-class working man in an environment in which the the "star" gets preferential treatment (a dressing room, expensive clothes, much higher pay), but is clearly incompetent. Murray, who writes all Ted's copy (which Ted inevitably butchers but is never fired) makes only a fraction of the amount of money Ted makes. It must seem really unfair, especially when Ted is always waving his financial success under everyone else's noses.

Life's a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!

[–] SimplemindedSociety 11 years ago

Howover, if you were to switch roles, Knight would have more likable as Murray.
My point is the actor himself; he wasn't likable on THE LOVE BOAT either.
Ironically, Murray takes Ted up on his offer to hang out and stay over at his place in one episode

[–] brendanchenowith 11 years ago

I thought Ted's "solo" series, Too Close for Comfort, was a little cheesy, but he was a very nice, likeable character on that series. After I read your post, I started to imagine Gavin McLeod and Ted Knight switching roles, and I think they both could have pulled it off. Witness Murray standing in for Ted during the strike episode - he came off just as pompous as Ted Baxter, especially with that bad toupee.

I can't think of one specifically at the moment, but when Ted is just naturally nice and relaxed, and not saying something stupid and not bellowing in his booming voice, he was just as friendly and likeable as Murray.

Thanks - now you got me started. (This is going to be fun)

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked.

[–] SimplemindedSociety 11 years ago

'Witness Murray standing in for Ted during the strike episode - he came off just as pompous as Ted Baxter, especially with that bad toupee.'

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I don't see them switching roles, since Ted was supposed to be handsome(wanted to be a 'male fashion model')and looks more like an anchorman. Murray didn't have the commanding voice that Knight had. It was cast to type.

[–] RRozsa 9 years ago

Very interesting observations! I don't disagree with anything you said.

Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!

[–] PrometheusTree64 11 years ago

And, also, David Lloyd just wrote funnier stuff.

--

Non-sequiturs are delicious.

[–] elisedfr 11 years ago

'Strange that, when the writers finally started giving Mary some zingers, Ted was her main target. Ted tells Mary his father left when Ted was age 2 and she says he should have left 3 years sooner. Or Mary can't get her stereo working. '

I just watched the ep in which Ted meets his estranged father, but can't remember the mean comment from Mary that you mentioned. She was really supportive the whole way through-even though she showed more tolerance towards the father than towards Ted ! But I really can't picture her saying that.

" You ain't running this place, Bert, WILLIAMS is!" Sgt Harris

[–] rivkahchaya-372-42432 12 years ago

One thing you have to keep in mind is that Ted makes a lot more money than the rest of them, and doesn't do much work. They all have a lot of resentment towards him for that, but especially Murray, because whenever things go well, Ted gets the credit, but when they don't, frequently Murray gets the blame. And Ted does screw things up a lot. Frankly, it's a wonder he doesn't get fired-- we get a hint in one episode that the news show pulls some of its ratings from people who tune in to watch Ted screw up, and Ted has no idea, but as far as management is concerned, ratings are ratings. Meanwhile, Murray and Lou want to be serious journalists, and Ted gets in their way.

It makes sense that in the beginning, Mary is just happy to have a job, but as time goes on, and she becomes more invested in the show, she resents Ted for making everyone look bad.

From another perspective, Ted is probably what TVtropes calls a "hatesink."

[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

suspension of disbelief is what's called for here. Of course, a Ted Baxter would not make it as a broadcaster in the real world. And the fact that Mary would be friends with everybody in the office is also not realistic.

[–] DrinkFromTheSameFountain 11 years ago

Yeah, I pretty much agree. I love Ted. Yes, he is self-absorbed, but in the same way that a child is self-absorbed. He was never deliberately cruel. Usually Mary is a pretty nice person, but the episode where Ted reunites with his father and he is experiencing some emotional reservations/pain and Mary's reaction is very unfeeling. (Rhoda was, IMO, much more sensitive to the situation, but then Rhoda really was a softie.) I wanted to reach through the tv and give Mary a couple of good slaps.

Murray can get away with being mean to Ted because he is kind of an underdog himself. Besides that, I never pay much attention to Murray. He is the ONLY character on this wonderful sitcom whom I do not care for.

By the way, Phyllis loved Ted.

[–] marielapenn 11 years ago

yeah, i was never crazy about murray either. he was fine, he just wasn't a scene-stealer like everyone else was. and he was a little too one-note, with the CONSTANT barbs at ted

for some reason, it seems like ted should be one-note too, but i think the way ted knight played him actually gave him way more dimension than he would have had otherwise. yes, he was vain, arrogant, dumb, but then he could also play cowardly, begging, sad, a softie underneath with a big heart and a genuine friendliness, and go back and forth between all those notes so brilliantly. sometimes in one episode!

murray never played anything but the same note, i feel. it's no wonder ed asner and ted knight were always battling it out for that supporting actor emmy every year, and both won multiple times. lou grant was a great character but ted knight really made ted baxter unforgettable too

something's always missing at those reunions when he's not there, because he was SUCH an essential presence on that show. one of my all time favorite ted moments is when lou loses all their betting money on the super bowl and hasn't told him yet- and then when he tells him ted stoically walks outside with him on the balcony and then instantly collapses, weeping into his shoulder. it made me burst out laughing so hard, and can you ever imagine murray playing that scene so well? his comedic timing was excellent

[–] bgva 11 years ago

I saw that episode re: Ted's father recently, and I agree the one-liner from Mary seemed very out-of-character for her.

Although you know it's a joke, Murray's smugness when trying to deliver one-liners to Ted makes him kinda annoying. And as much as I loved the "Chuckles Bites the Dust" episode, Murray's laughter after making a joke seemed kind of forced.

Oh stewardess...I speak jive.

[–] michaelward15 11 years ago

Yeah, I think they're too mean to Ted. It kind of ruins certain episodes.

[–] Doug-Oh 8 years ago

Yeah, I think they're too mean to Ted. It kind of ruins certain episodes.

Same on MASH and how the characters overly mistreated the Frank Burns character.

Sure, Burns was an incompetent and buffoonish character, but they really overdid it.
Amazing how Larry Linville was able to exceptionally portray that dislikable character all those years.

Murray once called Ted a "preposterous" character...

[–] onwardsandupwards 8 years ago

My problem with the character of Ted Baxter is that the writers would alternate between painting him as a moronic clueless buffoon and/or a self absorbed ego maniac (quite often he could be both in the same episode).

Hence why I felt little sympathy for him as he would constantly demonstrate a lack of concern/interest for others around him. In the world of Ted Baxter, he was the only person who mattered.

His treatment of Georgette was for the most part quite lousy. Whilst he did improve (somewhat over time), she was way too good for him. Frankly he deserved what he got from all the other characters.

Lou frequently showed his anger at him and who can blame the guy. Murray's way of dealing with his contempt for Ted was to take constant potshots at his lack of intellect. Mary (being nice) was civil towards him but over time she too grew weary of his behavior and became more overt at the digs she made towards him.

[–] PrometheusTree64 8 years ago

I remember being glad they didn't start being nicer to Ted.

So often in TV, after a show had been on for a while, they'd start trying to legitimize their creep characters by becoming overly sympathetic to them.

They never did that to Ted, and I was grateful.

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