MovieChat Forums > The Wild Bunch (1969) Discussion > Great stuff... thoughts after seeing unc...

Great stuff... thoughts after seeing uncut version


Wow they really don't make them like this anymore. William Holden is superb in this.

I think I saw this as a kid with my father when it was released. I have memories of the raw violence freaking me out. Over the years I have seen bits and pieces on tv, always chopped up pretty bad.

Last night watched full version (directors cut I guess at around 2:30 length). Some things that really stood out to me:

The opening scene with the kids, looking innocent until it is revealed what cruelty they are enjoying with the ants and scorpions.

The scene where they leave Angel's village with the villagers singing to them.

The whiskey bottle scene.

The train battle, Mariachi band scene.

The segment where Pike is putting his clothes on after being with that hot Latina gal, tells Lyle and Tector "Let's Go!", they step outside to merge with Dutch, then proceed with "The Walk". (To me, "The Walk" is one of the best scenes -ever-, in any movie, not just westerns).

The few moments before the full out gun battle begins, right after Pike blasting Mapache.

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The scene in Angel's village is pivotal,
because it's an epiphany for Pike and
the bunch. The villagers treat them like
saviors, that restores their moral compass,
and puts them on a path that will redeem
them.

A gun doesn't make your dick bigger, it makes you a bigger dick.

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The train battle, Mariachi band scene
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like something lifted out of history and edited in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3w_x2r8fH0&feature=related

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It's a common fallacy that the Director's cut is the "uncut" version. Yes, it has restored removed footage of important scenes that were removed for the film for general release, however the original pre general release version was much more violent than the "director's cut". Scenes were obviously alternately produced and inserted in the later cut, or just cut out completely. For example:

(a) Crazy Lee being shot several times with blood spurting in slow motion

(b} bullets impacting on the woman and boys when Crazy Lee shoots them

(c) several bystanders shot in bloody slow motion during the opening battle in the street

(d) the scene where Dutch says "we don't do that!" was cut in a scene showing some tortured villagers who had been crucified

(e) an extreme close up of the outlaw who was shot in the face with a shotgun - very gruesome

(f) the addition of dialogue "finish it mister Pike" was not in the original cut and inserted later. The wounded bandit was begging to be taken along when Pike shot him, making Pike appear to be considerably more ruthless or pragmatic.

Tragically, the out takes are now in a landfill somewhere and apparently the original prints no longer exist.

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(d) would make sense because Dutch seems to refer to a scene we are not made aware of. But how do you know of all these scrapped scenes?

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My father saw a pre general release version of the movie when he was stationed in Europe back in 1968 (movie wasn't officially released until 1969).

It was also pre-screened in Texas (Houston and Dallas), and was probably cut by the censors due to objections by some of the audience to the more graphic and grisly images, most of which would be passed in an unrated version these days. Bear in mind that there have been far more graphic, violent and gruesome movies with far less artistic merit released in recent years.

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There was also a scene where the Mexicans are unloading the Bunch's wagon of guns and ammo, and Sykes is saying they should go back for Angel and Dutch is saying 'How'

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That's flimsy evidence. All the authoritative, well researched books on the Wild Bunch make no mention of the scenes you've described.

The crucifixion scene you are refering to happens in Major Dundee.

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I just watched the "Original Director's Cut" with my father today and it was actually less violent than his memory recalled, too.

When I found this thread and read the differences to him, he was adamant that that was the cut he saw. He had just enlisted in the military at the time and doesn't recall if he was still stateside or in Germany, but he definitely saw the same rough cut with the more violent images. One scene that particularly stood out to him was when Crazy Lee kills the fleeing hostages with the shotgun - he remembers the flowers from the woman's hat flying everywhere. He also remembers the throat cutting being a much longer shot.


So, chalk up another anecdote perhaps, but I don't doubt my father's memory, especially after seeing such details posted here and in other threads.

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That was my dad's recollection as well. Sadly, I can't ask him about it anymore as he passed away a while ago. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who doubted the veracity of the Director's Cut. It always bothered me that many of the scenes at the beginning and end of the movie were very "choppy".

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Very choppy indeed. I remember those shootouts were even more graphic. An obvious cut is where Pike shoots the woman who shot him in the back. I remember seeing her dress burst open, an explosion of blood.

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I found that the scene with Crazy Lee in the bank is the most noticeable, particularly when he's shooting the hostages and when he gets shot multiple times himself.

The throat-slitting scene has been edited badly and is particularly jarring because of the obvious jump in the audio.

I've rewatched the scene scene you mentioned, and although that cut didn't strike me at first because of the fast pace of the whole final shootout scene, it becomes obvious on repeated viewing.

Peckinpah was known for quick cuts during the editing, in Cross of Iron, Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia, The Getaway and Killer Elite come straight away to mind, but even taking his style into account, the relentless censorship cuts in the Wild Bunch are so obvious that a blind man with a sack over his head in a dark cellar could see them.

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I heard from lot of different sources that scene where Crazy Lee shoots and kills three hostages and his death scene were originally shown onscreen.

Throat slitting scene was indeed cut, originally more blood was shown.

About that death scene of the woman during final shootout; I read some notes from people who worked on the movie and somebody said that famous finale was never cut for violence, although like i said Angel's death scene was little longer. Only graphic scene which was cut from the ending is scene where three bounty hunters are shot down by mexican villagers who helped Sykes.

The Wild Bunch was cut down for violence by Peckinpah himself even prior to being submitted to the MPAA and infamous previews where people were either laughing, throwing up or running out of the theatres due to the some graphic scenes.

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I saw it when it was first released in the UK which had more violence than the directors cut. I've aleady mentioned the buckshot woman, there was also the face splattered scene in the opening shootout not just a scream which is all you get now. I can't remember about Crazy Lee's death though. I was probably too traumatized to take any more in. And yes the throat cutting was more to it.
After all that I could hardly walk out of the picture house ending up fainting in the foyer, it was as if I was pulled into the screen.
No movie has had such an impact on me nor ever will.

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While at one hand i think that there is no way that uncut version was shown outside US or that you made a mistake, on the other hand maybe there is some truth about it. I know couple of other US movies that were cut to avoid X rating, but were shown in their unrated versions in UK and some other European countries.

Example, there is a version of Charles Bronson movie The Evil That Men Do that has some cuts by BBFC but also has uncut scenes which were trimmed to avoid X rating by MPAA in US, then there is Stallone's cult movie Nighthawks which also had to be cut for R rating but according to a lot of people it was shown uncut in some European theatrical versions.

Back to Wild Bunch. By the looks of it, i always thought that scene where guy gets shot in face was cut. Speaking of it, i read that there was a scene deleted where Thornton and bounty hunters find the body of that gang member and Thornton sends some of them to get it back into the town. Like i said earlier, i heard that final shootout was never cut in any way, so i'm not sure about what you said how death scene of mexican girl was trimmed.

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The cuts to the final scene in Nighthawks make no sense at all. Earlier in the movie Stallone's character is seen in the shooting range placing his shots on the target where they would inflict the maximum pain without killing the target before the final bullet. Hauer's character is seen to have multiple bullet wounds before he finally dies, but Stallone is seen and heard to have fired his revolver only twice.

But this is as nothing in comparison to the MPAA enforced cuts to Stallone's Cobra and Cliffhanger. There were workprints of the censored scenes on Youtube a number of years ago which unfortunately have been removed for copyright reasons.

I really do hope that one day, the complete version of The Wild Bunch will be available. Perhaps there is a collector somewhere who is sitting on an original print of the film.

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The cuts to the final scene in Nighthawks make no sense at all. Earlier in the movie Stallone's character is seen in the shooting range placing his shots on the target where they would inflict the maximum pain without killing the target before the final bullet. Hauer's character is seen to have multiple bullet wounds before he finally dies, but Stallone is seen and heard to have fired his revolver only twice.


Yes, that was actually the whole point of the shooting range scene, it was foreshadowing Hauer's death scene which originally was around 2 minutes long (i think) and it showed him getting shot five times in slow-mo with lots of blood and gore flying around and then final shot blow his head open.


But this is as nothing in comparison to the MPAA enforced cuts to Stallone's Cobra and Cliffhanger. There were workprints of the censored scenes on Youtube a number of years ago which unfortunately have been removed for copyright reasons.


I saw workprints of Cobra and Cliffhanger and to be honest, as much as i think that it sucks cause it really wasn't needed, cuts made on Cliffhanger are very brief and when put together i don't think that there is more then 20 seconds of extra bullet hits and other violent scenes. Travis death scene is quite longer in workprint but that scene wasn't cut due to the censors but on the decision by director himself so i don't count it as MPAA cut. Cobra, however, was fkn butchered by Warner Bros, Stallone and MPAA. Each had their own cuts made on the film. Plot parts, death scenes, violence and gore, and even the action scenes were heavily cut just so that the movie could be shorter in order to play more times in theatres. This doesn't really surprises me cause i know that Warner Bros dkheads would always fkd up some of their movies in post production re-editing.


Back to The Wild Bunch, i also hope that somebody will release infamous 4 hour cut. Hearing so many things about it and how graphic it originally was (I.Q Jones said that there were scenes of heads exploding, arms and legs flying around and disemboweled bodies) i really wanna see it, just like some other missing footage from many different movies.

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wtf3111992 I've always taken it as a given that the UK version was less censored than the US version. I've been on this board for at least 10 years and this has been stated many times.
I'm not convinced the the Original Directors Cut is what it says. It's more like the 1988 vhs edition with missing scenes replaced, such as the flashbacks and the rail yard bombardment But my theory is, the original European version is missing, probably lost forever.

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Definitely less blood shed since the first time I saw it over thirty years ago.

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Regarding the woman shot by Pike after she shoots him, you do see her dress burst open with blood (briefly) visible as she falls to her right in the version still being shown on British TV these days.

Incidentally there is a photo of Pike and the woman (before they shoot each other) in a book called "A History of Film Violence" or something like that. I saw this photo when reading the book several months before I first saw the film (at a North London cinema in 1982 - this was the version that was cut by the BBFC in 1969) My reaction to the photo was to think "that looks like a typical Western scene, with a man and woman in a saloon" and when I saw the film I was very surprised to discover that it took place in the middle of the famous shootout, and was not in a saloon.

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This aficionado viewed the picture when it was first released. Even though it was all cut to hell and did not make nearly as much of an impact as the director's cut does today, especially in Blu-ray, jerzy1 is absolutely right on except I don't remember the crucifixion scene.

The take of the outlaw that was shot in the face was longer and very graphic and shocked viewers in 1969. During the shoot out in the town, there was much more slow motion blood spurting showing townspeople being mowed down.

What a pity Peckinpah's true vision will never be seen.

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I always thought I saw more gore back in 1969. When Pike shoots the woman who shot him in the back for example.

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This is a Superfilm with real tough Actors and Sam Peckinpah.
1970 I was a young man,an Irish Catholic among Men.
Young men now have been victimized by TV/RADIO?films/women's movement{which Rockwell and the Bilderbergs funded}it ruined The Family Unit.
You young LADS want to give it back to Mexico? Well U have done it.

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Methinks some people's memories are betraying them here . As has been pointed out already, none of the authoritative, exhaustively researched accounts of the making of The Wild Bunch - eg those by such acknowledged Peckinpah authorities as David Weddle, Garner Simmons or Jeff Slater - make any mention of these alleged 'censorship cuts'.

What is documented is that Peckinpah himself made some trims to the violence after the previews - including, I seem to recall, the 'head blasting' scene in the opening massacre. He is on record as saying that he did this because (I paraphrase) he didn't want the violence per se to overwhelm or obscure the film's general thematic content - if one or two people walked out of the cinema because of the violence he said that was okay, but 20 or 30 was too many. It seems these cuts are lost forever - but then that was the way Sam wanted it, so we shouldn't complain.

What Sam was incandescent about were the cuts imposed by the studio after TWB was released, to shorten the film so they could fit in an extra screening per day. It is these cuts that are - largely - restored in what has come to be known as the director's cut.

As for the UK censorship history of TWB, here is is from the horse's mouth, the BBFC (as posted on their website):

The Wild Bunch was passed X for UK cinema release in 1969 after seven cuts had been made to moments of violence in the massacre scene at the film’s climax. These small cuts were to images of blood spurts after bodies are hit by gunshots and to images where a man is seen to be ‘gloating’ as he fires a machine-gun. The total amount of cut material amounted to just seconds. The subsequent lack of bloody detail and sadism was intended to lessen the impact of what was felt to be a very realistic and visceral scene. However, the cuts did not assuage the concerns of some members of the British public and, in a letter from the time, a correspondent complained that: "I felt unable to continue to watch the film…It appeared to me to be nauseating in its pointless violence…The exploitation of violence for its own sake cannot be tolerated as entertainment in the commercial cinema."

The video of The Wild Bunch was submitted soon after the BBFC was given the authority to classify such works under the Video Recordings Act 1984. It was first examined in May 1984 and great consideration was given to the violence in the massacre scene and to the fact that cuts had been written for the film version. Of the three examiners who saw the film on its first viewing, two felt that the violence was still strong enough to warrant two small cuts at 18. These examiners acknowledged in their reports that the film is ‘one of the most brilliant pieces of film-making there has ever been,’ but felt that "the artistic defence is lessened by the fact that many average film-goers … may not know that this is such a classic."

In July 1984, the film was seen by the BBFC’s Director James Ferman, to whom the final classification decision had been referred. He stated that the "context and knowledge of the genre mitigate the violence, which is nevertheless tough.’ Ferman deliberated on the two cuts recommended and ultimately decided that ‘the machine-gunning would not be reduced at 18 today and the blood spurt is not important enough to justify cutting in a great many videos already on release." The film was therefore passed at 18 without cuts. Due to the backlog of video works created by the introduction of the Video Recordings Act, the final certificate was not issued until April 1988.

A restored ‘director’s cut’ of The Wild Bunch, lasting some six minutes longer than the original, was submitted for classification on film in June 1995. Examiners stated that the ‘violence is as shocking as ever’ and did not hesitate in awarding the film an 18 certificate. The video submission of this restored version was also given an 18 when it was last submitted in April 1998.


Hence the director's cut now available on DVD is undoubtedly more violent than the original cinema release - not the other way around!

I suspect that British viewers may be getting muddled up with the censored version that was shown on TV for years in the seventies and eighties: thank God that's long been consigned to cinematic dustbin.

If they move, kill em!

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Thanks for that. I must admit I thought there was more violence in the original UK release in 69, but of course the initial impact - never before seen on screen - would give that impression. I didn't walk out I was nearly carried out in a state of shock.

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I think you've hit the nail on the head there, pullgees. Nothing remotely like Wild Bunch had ever been seen in the cinema before. I can only imagine the impact of seeing it on the big screen back in 1969. Being only 5 years old back then, I had to wait until 1982 to see the full, uncut version in a cinema - and despite having seen the film a few times on TV, it still blew me away.

I've since watched Wild Bunch maybe 35 or 40 times on video and DVD, and seen it at least five times in the cinema - including two consecutive viewings on the same day! It is undoubtedly Peckinpah's masterpiece, and one of the very finest films ever.

If they move, kill em!

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Yes, it got right into my psyche even dreamed about it years after, many times, not the violence but the main story with some alterations due to them being dreams. A very powerful film.

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Definitely some cloudy memories here. As someone who has seen pretty much every version of this film released (except the 4 hour workprint) I can definitely state that the violence that one saw in 1969 was the same violence that is present in the "Director's Cut."

The "alternate versions" part of IMDB for this film is not exactly accurate, but it's pretty close. Here's a complete rundown for the film:

The original four hour workprint had some violent scenes such as exploding heads and crucified bodies that were excised from the later cuts because they were either too excessive in Peckinpah's eyes or they were just unconvincingly staged. The exploding heads looked, by all accounts, exactly like what they were- plastic mannequins filled with cow guts. The rest of the excised footage was considered "filler" and did not advance the story. Most workprints are much longer than the final cut so this is to be expected.

The pre-release screenings were longer by about 6 minutes than the current "full" director's cut. The "missing" six minutes were apparently more flashbacks that Peckinpah felt bogged the film down and were excised before the general release. No violence was cut.

Europe got the full director's cut at 144 minutes. There was a mandatory 10-minute intermission spliced in right after Pike says "This is our last go-round."

The US got the full director's cut minus two flashbacks: Thornton being captured and Pike being shot. The intermission was not mandatory but most US theaters and drive-ins opted for it anyway.

The 1971 re-release became the new "standard" cut and was shortened to about 134 minutes. In addition to the two flashbacks already missing in the US, some scenes of dialogue were shortened and some scenes were cut, like Mapache waiting on the telegram and the day after the party in Angel's hometown.

When released on VHS and Videodisc in the early 80's, the print was made from the European cut and for the first time in the US viewers got to see the original US cut plus the two missing flashbacks from the Euro cut. Warner never "advertised" this on the packaging though as "Director's Cuts" were not understood really by the general public.

When re-released in the US in 1995 the print used was again the Euro cut, which had never been screened theatrically in the US and therefore had to be rated by the MPAA and was given an NC-17 rating. When Warner pointed out that the "new" cut was no more violent than the original, R-rated US cut, the ratings board relented and gave it an "R."

So when the "Director's Cut" was released on laserdisc, and later DVD, it was the same print that had always been on home video in the US. The only thing missing is the intermission.

So all these people saying that they saw a more violent cut are simply mis-remembering. This is not surprising considering how violent the film was in 1969. The people that were shocked by the gore have been desensitized in the last 45 years and are suddenly remembering more violence than was ever in the film.

It's the same thing with Rosemary's Baby. I hear people swear that when they first saw the film in 1969 that they showed a closeup of the baby's "demonic" eyes, but such a scene was never even filmed!

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I recently watched the film for the first time and I could see why many found the violence to be shocking in 1969. There weren't too many films like The Wild Bunch back then. Even by today's standards it's still a pretty brutal film especially with the finale but I don't think today's audiences would be as shocked by it. I read that when the film was screened for the very first time some critics actually walked out. And the film was either loved or hated depending on the critic.

Peckinpah was a little nuts though if he thought the MPAA back then would actually give it an R with exploding heads.:) He was probably fortunate that they came out not looking realistic.

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