MovieChat Forums > The Wild Bunch (1969) Discussion > 'He gave his word...'

'He gave his word...'

posted 11 years ago by Riding46
11 replies | jump to latest

"...but to the railroad"

"It doesn't matter, it's still his word!"

"That does not matter, it's who you give it to that is important"

I might not be correctly quoting the film but this is the arguement that Pike and Dutch have over the tenacity of Thornton's pursuit of them.

Who do you think was right here? Was Pike right to say that because Thornton gave his work to the railroad he could not do anything but keep chasing after them.
Or was Dutch correct in saying that it's more important in who you give your word too.

[–] pullgees 11 years ago

This is a good moral maze question which I have often pondered myself. If someone or something is your enemy - in this case the corrupt railroad company- then lying is all part of that conflict you are in if it gives you an advantage. So I think Dutch was right.

But as far as the story is concerned, Pike was giving Thornton a very noble excuse for chasing him relentlessly when he said "He gave his word!", as if it was just that. Yes sure he agreed to run down Pike dead or alive, but there was nothing noble about it, Thornton was self interested, he didn't want to be sent back to prison, destroying any allegiance he once had with Pike.
In the end of course he was offered the chance to stay in Mexico with at least food and shelter and maybe some booty, by joining the revolution. A very complex character.

[–] userx 11 years ago

Dutch was definitely right. Pike on the other hand is saying if he had the opportunity to stay out of jail as Thornton did, he'd be hunting down his old friends too.

[–] ScopeWatcher 10 years ago

Another element of this exchange is that through screaming "It's his word!," Pike is trying to defend one old and absent friend, Thornton, against criticism from another friend: Dutch (a friend of shorter duration who apparently didn't know Thornton himself). But Dutch's point is that he judges Thornton for having made any agreement at all with the despised railroad management -- which leaves Pike with no reply other than his wounded loyalty. And the blows to Pike's loyalty throughout the film eventually culminate in the decision to confront Mapache and his whole army.

What a film! And what a loss to know that no picture so complex, powerful, yet subtle as this will ever be made again.

Most great films deserve a more appreciative audience than they get.

[–] varuns-1 9 years ago

"What a film! And what a loss to know that no picture so complex, powerful, yet subtle as this will ever be made again. "

Beautifully said. This was a one-of-its-kind, we will never see its like again. The younger generation need to watch it, I have already sent the video to two 20 somethings.

It isn't just the violence, and even that is actually artistically and beautifully done. It's all the nice touches( including the quasi father/son relationship that both Pike and Bishop have with Angel), the acting, the camaraderie, the history, the against-all-odds theme, the ruthlessness and brutality mixed with great civility and humaneness, the ambiguity about the good guys and bad guys concept, the mix of tragedy and necessity with the Wild Bunch exiting from this world, and that too brutally and gloriously.

[–] lmh-10 9 years ago

On a side note the similar time and place film The Professionals also has a similar scene between Bill Dolworth (Burt Lancaster) and Rico Fardan (Lee Marvin):

RF: That couldn't be the reason you took this job?
BD: Can you think of a better one?
RF: Your word. You gave your word.
BD: My word to Grant aint worth a plug nickel.
RF: You gave your word to me.

[–] shepardjessica-1 9 years ago

Dutch was right.

[–] varuns-1 9 years ago

Dutch's argument was moral and principled, but ignored the context, or was oblivious to it.

Thornton did not want to go back to prison, which was brutal( as we see in flashbacks earlier in the film) so he decided to help kill/capture his former associates.

There is some ambiguity at all times, whether Thornton himself would have shot Pike or Sykes, though. He wouldn't have hesitated with the rest of the bunch, including Dutch.

The bottom line is that Thornton's behaviour was defensible from the vantage point of someone who did not want to go back to the brutal prison Yuma, to spend
out the rest of his life.

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] hammerlix 9 years ago

The films main theme is loyalty, far as I see it.

I agree, but another main theme, maybe even a bigger main theme is "the changing times" the Wild Bunch found themselves in.

At the time of this exchange between Pike and Dutch, Pike was applying his time honored values to a modern day entity... such as giving your word (and your loyalty) to a corrupt and soulless railroad company.

Dutch knew things were no longer as simple as they once were. He knew there was a difference between giving your word and loyalty to another person and giving your word and loyalty to something like a railroad company.

Sadly, there was a time when concepts such as "giving ones word" and "loyalty" were extremely important to the health and proper functioning of any social order. Today, we speak of these things in abstract, much like we may talk about carrier pigeons or dodo birds, species once common, but now extinct. Peckinpah was a genius.

"Finance is the gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger."

[–] nutmustardxx 8 years ago

GooD reply . Loyalty and keeping ones word was important once...times change but the things that make men great haven't. I like the movie alot. I love that they went back and shot it out, they realized maybe that their times had been passed and living in the "new" times wasn't worth it unless they did it their own way.

[–] Flosive 9 years ago

I find it interesting that most posters consider Dutch to be right ('moral and principled' as one put it), while believing that Pike is defending a friend who's being forced to act out of self-interest. Principle vs self-interest yes, but you've all got it the wrong way around.

Depending on how he feels about someone, whether he respects them or not, it's Dutch who's saying that he will lie and betray others for his own self-interest, which doesn't seem very right or principled to me. But for Pike and Thornton, their word, their personal honour and integrity, are everything, no matter who they're making promises to. That's why we see the strained moment of confusion between Dutch and Pike just after the outburst, they're both realising they don't share the same core value, they're not likeminded companions after all, that was always Pike and Thornton.

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