Does anyone think the following actors could have been good in the film? Burt Lancaster, Kirk
Douglas, Lee van Cleef, Eli Wallach, Richard Widmark, James Coburn, Charles Bronson, Yul Brynner, Henry Fonda, John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart, or Richard Farnsworth.
Thank You
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Sam Peckinpah sent copies of the Wild Bunch script to lots and lots of actors...including some above (Burt Lancaster and, incredibly, James Stewart.)
For the role of Pike Bishop: Other than Burt Lancaster and Stewart, these actors were sent the script: Charlton Heston(who had starred for Peckinpah as Major Dundee); Gregory Peck, Robert Mitchum, Sterling Hayden, and Richard Boone. And William Holden.
Moreover, the role of Dutch (Ernest Borgnine got it) was originally intended to be more young -- Pike's son-figure rather than saddle buddy. The role of Dutch was offered to: Steve McQueen, George Peppard, Charles Bronson, Jim Brown(a black actor), Alex Cord, Sammy Davis Jr(who was a quick draw expert), and Richard Jaeckel.
Deke Thornton was offered to Henry Fonda, Ben Johnson, Van Heflin, and Brian Keith. The role went to Robert Ryan.
And Freddie Sykes was offered to Walter Brennan, Lee J. Cobb, Elisha Cook Jr., William Demarest, Paul Fix and Andy Clyde. The role went to Edmond O'Brien.
Combine any of those actors together and The Wild Bunch would have still been a great film(Peckinpah's landmark bloodletting and montage speeds would see to that.) But the cast that we have seems RIGHT.
William Holden had as much experience as a "modern cynical man" as he did in Westerns. Pike Bishop is a throwback to the Holden of Sunset Boulevard as much as an ode to a Westerner.
Ironically, because he was ill with the first signs of the cancer that would kill him, Robert Ryan looked great -- tall, thin, chiseled of race, handsome in moustache and longish gray hair. He could seem like Holden's "more appropriate" pal/platonic lover as opposed to the more robust and less elegant Borgnine.
The "young" character of Dutch was changed to Ernest Borgnine for the simple reason that a money man -- producer Kenneth Hyman -- wanted Borgnine cast in the some role in the movie. Peckinpah relented and we got, in Borgnine, an interesting mix of his two most famous characters in movies: warm-hearted pal Marty and cold-hearted killer Fatso Judson(From Here to Eternity.) HIs most famous TV character -- McHale -- was nowhere to be seen. The overweight, rotund Borgnine made a nice counterweight to Holden's slim and trim Pike -- the Big Man that a smaller man sometimes needs to enforce his rules.
Its a great cast, and Holden, Borgnine and O'Brien were Oscar winners.
But this: The Wild Bunch first got its green light for production when a very big NEW star was attached: Lee Marvin as Pike Bishop. But Marvin backed out -- he and his agents felt the movie was too close to The Professionals and the musical Paint Your Wagon offered more pay and a "nice" role to escape his killer persona. Holden was a better choice, because Holden was still suave and commanding -- but on the downhill slope of his stardom. He FIT Pike Bishop better than Lee Marvin at his box office peak.
I'm just going to make a small quibble over your characterization of Ernie Borgnine.
I don't think overweight and rotund apply to Mr B. That's simply his body style. From what I recall, he always appeared that way, and I imagine he was likely as athletic as the next guy who might look more sculpted.
I prefer to think of him as barrel chested and robust.
Also, I did a little reading about him on IMDb, and he seemed genuinely concerned people might think of him as a Bad Man, he played so many tough guy roles. I think he asked his wife, "Am I really that bad?" He was such a good actor, he could be both good and bad, a bad man with good reason, or a good guy who was the most likable person in the room. I rarely remember him giving a bad performance. Maybe The Vikings, idk, that was a pretty hammy film.
I'm just going to make a small quibble over your characterization of Ernie Borgnine.
I don't think overweight and rotund apply to Mr B. That's simply his body style. From what I recall, he always appeared that way, and I imagine he was likely as athletic as the next guy who might look more sculpted.
I prefer to think of him as barrel chested and robust.
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Me, too. Actually. I'm personally a bit closer to Borgnine than to Holden. And while Holden and a few other tough guy actors died in their sixties or fifties, the "overweight" Borgnine lived into his nineties at acted in his nineties. He's a role model for us bigger fellahs.
That said, versus the usually skinny guys cast as leads in movies, Borgnine was a bigger fellah, and his stomach was prominent. (I always like that he did one topless scene in The Wild Bunch, in the steam bath, showing us what he was literally made of.)
"Out here" we watch movies and watch movie stars' appearance and I suppose it is natural to comment: tall, thin, stocky, gained weight , lost weight, face aged, etc. Movie people subject themselves to this kind of scrutiny. Us regular people don't.
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Also, I did a little reading about him on IMDb, and he seemed genuinely concerned people might think of him as a Bad Man, he played so many tough guy roles. I think he asked his wife, "Am I really that bad?"
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Perhaps this is one of the reasons he took "McHale's Navy" and played such a nice, funny character. TV stardom gets you to millions more fans(well, it did back then with fewer channels.) Borgnine said that's one reason he took the role -- to get more exposure.
But when McHale's Navy went off the air, and he went back to movies -- villains were often his bread and butter. Though having played McHale, he was sometimes a little harder convincing us he WAS bad.
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He was such a good actor, he could be both good and bad, a bad man with good reason, or a good guy who was the most likable person in the room.
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Any number of "character stars" pulled that off well. They could play in all directions. Handsome leading me were often stuck in "good guy mode."
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I rarely remember him giving a bad performance. Maybe The Vikings, idk, that was a pretty hammy film.
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Agreed, on both points. And The Vikings WAS hammy...bigger than life in all the roles.
I'm not sure I would change a single actor in this film. Wayne, Stewart and Fonda might have been a bit old for Pike's role and I doubt any of them would have wanted anything else.
The key is that these guys are getting close to being over the hill not already are. They are in a profession that does not allow you to reach social security age.