Helicopters???


I haven't read all the threads here so someone may have already mentioned this before but;

A helicopter appears in both the movie and the novel and in the "goofs" section they mention that the Germans did not operate American Bell helicopters in WW two.

That's correct, as far as it goes, the Germans didn't operate ANY helicopters in WW 2 and neither did anyone else; while the helicopter existed it was still experimental and did not go into general service with any country until after WW 2 was over.

I'm surprised Alistair MaClean made such a huge mistake in his writing. Poetic license is one thing, but this fact jumped out at me even when I first read the book as a child.

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Very true. But not an unique error. Another movie (I forget which) shows the British sinking a German aircraft carrier in WW2. The Germans had no aircraft carriers in WW2.

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Actually the US Navy used a few helicopters near the end of WWII for air-sea rescue. However they were not in general service until the Korean Conflict.

I don't know of any such British picture, but I do know the American film "A Guy Named Joe" (1943) showed Spencer Tracy sinking a German aircraft carrier during WWII. The Germans were building an aircraft carrier but never completed it. The other goof in the film was that Tracy's character was flying a B-25 bomber but had no crew. There was no way he could have dropped any bombs by himself and no way he would have been able to take off alone without a co-pilot, navigator, bombardier, radioman, gunners, etc.

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Pmiano-read my response regarding this thread, next message. All those websites do state that helicopters WERE in service with Germany, the US, and Great Britain which was using US-supplied Sikorskys.

The numbers were not as those that would appear in Korea, but those websites stated they were IN SERVICE by 1944...

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I said they were not in "general" service, which is true. They didn't go into air-sea rescue until very late in 1944. I wouldn't say it was "experimental" but it was a try-out, using them in "limited" service. I didn't claim to know anything about the other countries, but you know the helicopter the Germans used in the movie wasn't the one they were operating. Still, you are correct that helicopters were being used, however limited that use may have been. I congratulate you for your excellent research.

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The German Kriegsmarine DID have an AC Carrier in existence Altho73. It was christianed the KMS ZEPELLIN, which was still in the shipyard at Wilmshaven in the construction stage and designed to accomodate the Stuka Junkers Ju-87D dive-bomber (and as a part-time torpedo attack aircraft as well) and the Me 109 fighter plane.It was never completed from the landing deck up. Re the movie: the helo was just thrown in as a curiosity, as the Germans were playing with all sorts of technology. It was pretty much a postwar, early American-made Bell 47G modified with a glazed canopy typical of German design and painted in respective colours and markings. This helo itself was one of the first pre-1950 helicopters, so the director/producer felt they could slide with this scene. PLUS upon landing on the Schloss-Adler, the officer in charge asks the top commander who just stepped off the machine, "How do you like your new TOY, Mayor?" or something to that extend...yes, helicopters were in the experimental stage in all countries involved during 1944.

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Please read the articles attached to these URLs. Not a link but you have to

copy and paste.

Germany, the Kolibri. http://www.helis.com/pioneers/h_fl282.php

Also http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/aviation/shipbased/fl282/index.html

and http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/focke_drache.php

US, the first medevac flights by helicopters in January 1944. See

http://members.cox.net/eholmes333/soun-pg4.html

http://www.military.cz/usa/air/war/helo/r4/r4_en.htm

http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_r4_sikorsky.php

Also the Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_assault

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_R-4



All these web sites say that your sentence "...as far as it goes, the Germans didn't operate ANY helicopters in WW 2 and neither did anyone else; while the helicopter existed it was still experimental and did not go into general service...until after WW 2 was over" is wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. Germany operated two different helicopter models and the US operated one by 1944; they were not experimental by 1944 but in service. Not in as many numbers as later in Korea...

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I'm sorry, but I'm not wrong wrong wrong and wrong! (are you twelve?)

My statement was that they were experimental and not in "general service", in my world general service means squadron service, normal front line aircraft and helicopters did not achieve this until after the war. I never said the US and Germany didn't have any.

The US had one model that was used for rescue operations in 1944 but in very limited numbers.

Germany did not have two operational helicopters in WW two, they had two models that were flying, one actually went into production (FA223) but only twenty were produced and it was never really used in service, ie; there was no group/squadren operating them. The other was a gyro type of aircraft used by the navy and was not much more than a towed kite.

So, I may have been wrong that the US did not have an operating helicoptor but it was not in "general service" by the end of the war and certainly not by 1944, it was used in very limited rescue ops off the US. I never said there were none flying, again, I said, not in general service.

And Germany had two aircraft in very limited numbers that were not practical and again; WERE NOT OPERATED IN GENERAL SERVICE. If you disgree find me the squadron designations for the Luftwaffe helicoptor squadrons that were operating during the war.



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If you had bothered to look at the URLs I provided, you would have seen these "models" were actually in production. There certainly were a few in operation but they had passed the prototype or testing phase.

And the German unit was Luft-Transportstaffel 40, operating both helicopters.

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The Fa223 was indeed in production; after delays, allied bombing raids etc, they actually produced a total of eleven aircraft! when I was in service a squadron consisted of at least twenty aircraft and during WW2 I believe it was at least seventeen. The eleven aircraft finally produced were never actually front line aircraft and were never in general service before the end of the war; one I believe was used for a rescue attempt in the mountains and crashed, killing it's entire crew.

At the end of the war the Luft-Transportstaffel 40 had a total of three Fa223's in it's inventory and none of them were considered operational aircraft, yes, they were in production in the fact that they were "produced" but there was no production line in operation and yes, they were assigned to an operating outfit but staffel 40 operated many other types of aircrafttoo, it's primary equipment was not helicopters, the fact that only eleven were made and the staffel only had three at the end of the war speaks for itself. Just because a handful of the type existed doesn't make it an operational aircraft, the Germans had a great many prototype aircraft that flew during the war but never entered regular service, the helicopter was one of these.

After the war one of those Fa-223's was flown to the UK, making it the FIRST helicopter to cross the English Channel...after the war, that also speaks for itself, as does the fact that when this aircraft later crashed it had been flown more than any of it's brethen and yet had a total of 170 hours logged on its airframe...total time.

I believe the orginal point was that they had no "operational" helicopters during the war, that they were still experimental aircraft in that they were not in front line or general service.

I believe I've proved that point.
I'm done.

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A discovery channel clip on FA223
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0flSwzjnMA

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Putting aside whether it seemed likely, at least having a helicopter was possible. I can see a general taking one out for a joy ride when it was convenient and he wanted to check out what this new air machine was all about.

Gotta give the writers a pass on this one.

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[deleted]

Hi!

I think the film is a boy's fantasy. If Dick Tracy can have a radio wristwatch and James Bond can have a car that goes underwater, I think we can excuse helicopters. For heavens sake, Wild Wild West (with Will Smith) even had a gigantic steam powered robot in the 1880s. :)

-Johnny

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I saw the film for the first time in about 30 years over the weekend and when the German general arrived in the copter, I was sputtering and yelling like many other folks probably have. But some research showed the German did have experimental models, so it's plausible certain officers may have tried them out for fairly short trips. I also think we viewers were supposed to realize that copters weren't a normal occurrence at the time: Early in their initial conversation, the general says something to the commandant like, "How do you like my machine, eh?" like it's out of the ordinary. Also later in the film, the SS guy walks by it, and makes a point of staring at it (I think he even looks back at it before entering the castle).

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There was an earlier thread on this subject that went into great detail about the helicopters used by the Germans and the US. Sadly it seems to have been pruned - it was very instructive, although it was clear that the helicopter issue as far as the movie is concerned was barely plausible and only with a real stretch of the imagination.

MacLean was a good writer - I have many of his books - but wasn't great at research.

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A helicopter was possible, if not plausible. My guess is that the writer or director wanted a helicopter, found one was at least plausible and so added it in. It didn't make it fantasy. Also, makes for nice visuals.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

Thanks to justang for directing me to this thread. Covers all the questions I had.

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I actually had the same thought as you at first, but it turns out that the German armed forces and other IMDb posters knew a whole lot more about helicopters than I do.

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