Alistair MacLean sure could write a fast story when he wanted. WHERE EAGLES DARE is a fun movie if you watch expecting it to be fun. So in this film, I don't take detail too seriously even though World War II was a very real war. But in many war movies it seems that Wehrmacht and SS Uniforms are interchangeable, and often it seems that the meanest of the mean will wear black regardless of his branch, simply to look more formidable. Kramer and Rosemeyer are SS, yet they wear grey, which I understood to be Wehrmacht. Von Hapen is Gestapo, yet he wears a black uniform which I understood to be strictly SS. Does anyone know what determined that some wore gray and some wore black? I do understand that it is a trivial when discussing Nazis. Just curious.
Rosemeyer is German Army. Kramer is Waffen SS- the armed forces branch of the SS, Hitler's bodyguard. The Waffen SS more or less fought as normal soldiers but their history was marred by quite a few war atrocities. Kramer refers to Rosemeyer and Kramer as being both "Army" nevertheless because he thinks of himself as a fellow soldier. Von Hapen shouldn't be wearing the black SS parade uniform, especially with the SS runes on the collar. He would have probably been dressed in civilian clothes- after all "Gestapo" is short for Secret State Police! One story I have heard is that someone asked why Derren Nesbitt was wearing the black SS uniform consideing he was playing a Gestapo officer and the reply was " Because he looks so damn good in it!" He is very clearly the villain of the piece- the classic bad guy in black. Ironic really as AFAIK Derren Nesbitt is Jewish.
Thanks Hotrodder, I had not even considered SS versus Waffen SS, and I guess I called it on Von Hapens SS Uniform. Gestapo wore black trenchcoats but I do not doubt that the uniform was to make him look ominous and by definition "awesome" before Sean Penn ruined the word for writers. Who was also ironically Jewish? Ferdy Mayne who was Rosemeyer, and Steven Berkoff who played Hitler in "War and Remembrance" and the actors who played Schulz, Klink, Burkhalter, and Hochstetter on "Hogan's Heroes", the last of whom was also Gestapo parading in an SS uniform.
The Gestapo didn't generally wear black leather trenchcoats- that's a movie cliche really- what they really wore was normal civilian clothes. The whole idea was to blend in with the general population after all, to listen in on conversations, etc.. There's a Gestapo agent in the old TV series Colditz who has a checked jacket, a bow tie and IIRC wears a beret. He's also rather fat. About as far as you can get from the stereotypical movie Gestapo agent. He's still an absolute twat though. Yeah, there's a surprising amount of Jewish actors who have played Nazi officers, Otto Preminger also springs to mind.
Of course, Otto Preminger in STALAG 17! I thought Conrad Veidt from CASABLANCA as well, but he was simply a German refugee with strong anti-Nazi sentiments. So Gestapo probably did not technically have a uniform and probably just employed SS soldiers for operations like arrests and executions. Admittedly, that is just speculation.
While he wasn't Jewish, Anton Diffring also fled from the Nazis. Supposedly it was because he was gay, but I haven't been able to confirm this. In any event, regardless of why he escaped the Nazis, he's another good example of a German from that era who hated the Third Reich, fled from them, and yet found himself playing them again and again.
"I mean, really, how many times will you look under Jabba's manboobs?"
The Gestapo didn't generally wear black leather trenchcoats- that's a movie cliche really- what they really wore was normal civilian clothes
Exactly.
If you find a copy of the book "The Interrogator" about Hans Scharff (http://www.amazon.com/The-Interrogator-Luftwaffe-Schiffer-Military/dp/ 0764302612), there are quite a few pictures from Scharff's own archive of a Gestapo officer who accompanied Scharff, some colleague(s), and an American officer (Luftwaffe prisoner, a colonel, iirc) on a day trip and the man is clearly just wearing dopey looking civilian clothes (though Scharff does mention that the Gestapo-man had a big black auto, which is why they agreed to let him accopmany them on the day trip in the first place...otherwise he would've been persona non-grata!!).
Where Eagles Dare is atrocious w/r/t historical accuracy and realism of action depicted but it's such a fun, fun movie of a kind in a style we don't really get anymore. That's why W.E.D. is a classic!!
reply share
Who was also ironically Jewish? Ferdy Mayne who was Rosemeyer, and Steven Berkoff who played Hitler in "War and Remembrance" and the actors who played Schulz, Klink, Burkhalter, and Hochstetter on "Hogan's Heroes", the last of whom was also Gestapo parading in an SS uniform.
Anton Diffring had Jewish ancestors at least, on his Polish side. His real name was Alfred Pollack (Pollack = Polak/Polish). It is ironic that Anton Diffring was of Polish descent and with some Jewish heritage to boot!
And the exchange between Rosemeyer and Kramer goes like this:
Rosemeyer: This can remain a strictly army matter for the time being. Kramer: I agree.
Kramer never identifies himself as army. He simply agrees with Rosemeyer that the SS and Gestapo shouldn't be involved. Simple as that.
Why is another matter. Perhaps because he is obviously old friends with Rosemeyer (who calls him "My dear Kramer"), or perhaps, slightly uncharacteristic of an SS officer, Kramer wants to foster cooperation between the Wehrmacht and SS, and sees giving Rosemeyer the lead in the Carnaby interrogation as a way to do so.
Another theory is that it's due to Kramer's dislike of von Hapen. Setting aside whatever else Kramer thinks of the Gestapo, the SS and the Third Reich in general, it's obvious he hates von Hapen's guts and wants him gone. And it isn't difficult to see why. Von Hapen consistently oversteps his authority, is arrogant and ambitious, and perpetually has a stick up his butt.
I get the feeling Kramer wasn't the only one who disliked him either (note Weissner's sideways glance when von Hapen gives his stiff salute when Kramer is introducing them to Rosemeyer; as if Weissner is thinking "Can you believe this guy?").
With all of this in mind, it's possible Kramer sees granting personal favors and lots of leeway to his old buddy Rosemeyer instead of the head of the Gestapo as a way of sticking it to von Hapen. And if Kramer and Rosemeyer can get the invasion info out of Carnaby without von Hapen's help, Kramer can, as von Hapen says, discredit him with Berlin and have the bleach-blonde upstart reassigned somewhere where he won't have to deal with him anymore.
Or all the above; Kramer is old friends with Rosemeyer and shows him favor while also fostering cooperation between two parts of the German military notorious for disliking one another, all while hoping to use the fruits of their labor to embarass von Hapen.
"I mean, really, how many times will you look under Jabba's manboobs?"
Von Hapen shouldn't be wearing the black SS parade uniform, especially with the SS runes on the collar. He would have probably been dressed in civilian clothes- after all "Gestapo" is short for Secret State Police!
It should be noted thate though the Gestapo were "Secret Sate Police" they actually didn't do undercover work themselves and though usually dressed in civilian clothing while in Germany (but not occupied territories) they were usually ope about who they were in the same way homicide detectives are in the UK or USA.
There were occasions where a Gestapo officer especially the head of the local branch would where a uniform and it would be an SS one. I don't think anyone here has mentioned that it had been part of the Allgemeine-SS since 1936. Many Gestapo members were SS members before joining the Gestapo and thus kept their normal SS rank (and uniform) and a specific Gestapo rank thus you could be a Gestapo Kriminalrat and an Allgemeine-SS SturmbannfĂĽhrer and be entitled to wear civilian clothing (in Germany), the Gestapo feldgrau uniform (in occupied Germany) and any SS uniform connected with their concurrent regular SS rank. Thus Von Hapen could actually be entitled to wear the black SS uniform if he had joined the SS and then the Gestapo. The black uniform was mostly for parade and other occasions and thus was not usually worn unless you were in a foreign division such as Wiking division in which various uniforms were issued including the traditional black SS and black SS Panzer uniforms due to a shortage of the feldgrau uniform later in the war.
reply share
Some historians believe that the Gestapo (or some of the officers) may have had the black SS dress uniform (though with one blank branch square, just as on the grey version) before 1939 as it had been under the administration of the SS since 1934. Infact, the counsel for the SS during the Nuremberg trials did claim that the Gestapo wore black uniforms (and thus were to blame for many SS atrocities): see 'The Gestapo On Trial' by Bob Carruthers.
However, the year is wrong for Von Happen to wear a black uniform anyway and he should not have had the more iconic SS insignia, as the Gestapo actually had an all black square on one side of their uniform:
He would have probably been dressed in civilian clothes- after all "Gestapo" is short for Secret State Police!
As it is set in Germany that is very true, though in occupied countries they did wear a uniform as they didn't put as much emphasis on ''secret''; they usually used plainclothes policemen or military intelligence personnel for such tasks in those areas.
As has already been pointed out, Rosemeyer is not SS, he is Heer (army). In general it seems as though the majority of the Germans in the Schloss Adler were SS, while the ones in town were Heer, specifically Alpenkorps since the town was near a training center for that group.
The only bleedover either way besides Rosemeyer seemed to be that the SS in town were either off duty hitting the local nightlife or on specific business from the castle such Weissner and his men and all the SS hunting for Smith and Schaffer thereafter. Besides Rosemeyer and his pilot, no Heer are seen in the Schloss Adler itself; everyone there is SS, which makes the fact Smith and Schaffer are allowed to come and go so freely about the castle in their Alpenkorps uniforms a little weird.
The uniforms are mostly accurate*, except for von Hapen's. Even leaving aside the issue of Gestapo vs. SS, the SS phased out the all-black uniforms in 1938 and replaced them with gray ones, a year before the war started. Consequently, von Hapen and the handful of other Gestapo dudes he's seen boozing it up with in Zum Wilden Hirsch should be wearing gray like Kramer and the other SS officers.
Note that von Hapen's black uniform is only inaccurate due to the time period, not due to his being Gestapo. I think the Gestapo were required to be uniformed after a certain point because their plainclothes people kept getting accidentally killed by their own troops before they could identify themselves, so the Gestapo did wear uniforms. And since the Gestapo were part of the SS or at least connected to it in some manner, their uniforms, when they wore them, would therefore be similar to the SS'. Perhaps not exactly like von Hapen's but close enough that the black color is the only "real" inaccuracy.
The SS switched to gray before the war began as I've said. Aside from different insignia, their outfits were distinguishable from the Wehrmacht (particularly the Heer) by being a different shade of gray. If I'm right, the Heer wore a sort of greenish-gray/grayish-green whereas the SS had just plain gray. If you rewatch the movie, you may notice Kramer's uniform is a much lighter gray than Rosemeyer's during their scenes together.
*One thing my dad pointed out to me is that some of the SS personnel at the castle, including Kramer, have the adelweiss emblem of the Alpenkorps on their uniforms. Did the SS have mountain troops, and, if so, did they use the adelweiss the way the Alpenkorps did?
"I mean, really, how many times will you look under Jabba's manboobs?"
The black SS uniform was still is use at a later time though- Hitler's guards at the chancellery are pictured wearing the black uniforms well after the war started. I think it was still used as a parade uniform but such parades were rarely performed once the war started. Yes, I agree the Gestapo could wear the SS style grey uniform but without the SS runes on the collar, a plain black patch being used instead. The field grey had nothing to do with the branch of the army or whether it was SS or not. Field grey varied wildly from different manufacturers from a variety of greys, grey greens to almost being totally green at times- it got even worse as the war went on and quality control slipped. The main difference apart from slights differences in cut was that the Wehrmacht used a very dark green colour for the collars and shoulder boards while SS used black. However as senior officers Rosemeyer and Kramer would have had their uniforms privately tailored and they would choose the field grey themselves from swatches. Any photo of senior German officers shows a wide variety of shades and numbers of buttons, often flouting regulations in those matters.
One thing my dad pointed out to me is that some of the SS personnel at the castle, including Kramer, have the adelweiss emblem of the Alpenkorps on their uniforms. Did the SS have mountain troops, and, if so, did they use the adelweiss the way the Alpenkorps did?
Yes, the SS did have mountain troops and yes, they did use the edelweiss too. This recruitment poster clearly shows it:
One reason the Colonel didn't like the Major was his womanizing. He mentioned to Von Halpen that one reason that, finding that the Major was not at his desk, he didn't search further to tell him about the five British agents was that he didn't want to "search every guesthouse".
"Two more swords and I'll be Queen of the Monkey People." Roseanne
I read somewhere that at the Nuremberg trials, a defence lawyer trying to discredit witness testimony about wartime SS atrocities tried to lead the witness into saying the SS were wearing black uniforms. The witness refused to take the bait, saying the SS were dressed in grey, as was usually the case after war broke out.