MovieChat Forums > Midnight Cowboy (1969) Discussion > Such an unsettling movie

Such an unsettling movie

posted 10 years ago by swb95
34 replies | jump to latest

I watched this movie for the second time today, about 2 years since my first viewing. After watching it the first time, I realized that it was an admirable film, but something about it made me not crazy about it. Maybe the subject matter was hard for me to get in to. After the first time I watched it, I was so disturbed by how depressing and cold this movie was, that I was sure I'd never see it again. Witnessing Joe's complete lack of dignity and how cruel the world was to him and Ratso were things I wasn't sure I'd want to watch again. After my second viewing, I seemed to have liked it more, perhaps because I knew what to expect and was more focused on the movie as a whole rather than just particular scenes. Still upsetting, but I think Midnight Cowboy is a movie gets better with every view. The fact that it leaves such an impact on people, whether it's positive or negative, says a lot about it.

[–] Edward_de_Vere 10 years ago

I would say that the film's ending is bittersweet rather than uncompromisingly dark. It obviously seems sad initially because of Ratso's death and Joe finding himself alone and without a friend in the world. But it also ends on a note of hope for Joe - he throws away his cowboy outfit, gives up on the degrading life of the sex trade, and vows to start a new life and an honest living with a realistic goal (i.e. "working outdoors" - meaning in all likelihood a construction or landscaping job, which shouldn't be that hard to find in late 60's Florida).

[–] rascal67 10 years ago

.....it also ends on a note of hope for Joe - he throws away his cowboy outfit, gives up on the degrading life of the sex trade, and vows to start a new life and an honest living with a realistic goal...
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It is these simple and small moments in the film, like Joe throwing away his cowboy outfit, that speak volumes throughout this 'marvellous' film. Joe had his looks and his youth and it was a fresh beginning for him. He would have been alone initially; but I would say he would have found a new lease and outlook on life. He had come full circle and had grown up, due to his NY experience with Ratso. Whatever he chose to do—even if it was diner work again—his attitude about it, would be more 'realistic' and positive.

[–] howardkoor 9 years ago

Yes, agreed. He (Joe) was going through redemption. In the only way that his character could. He went to to NY to conquer it, and found a friend in the most unlikely way. I loved this movie not because it was uplifting, but because the characters were so fascinating. Loved the ending, cause it led to a new beginning.

[–] InherentlyYours 10 years ago

The world wasn't really cruel to Joe, he made it cruel for himself by his own actions and idealism.

What is unsettling is that people don't change overnight; the ending does not mean Joe would do any better in Florida than he did in NY. What would he do that he didn't in Texas which flustered him? Unless he planned on being a prostitute in Florida also, but that's no guarantee either. He would use any money he had to get a room in Florida, but then what.

[–] rascal67 10 years ago

The world wasn't really cruel to Joe, he made it cruel for himself by his own actions and idealism.
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Isn't that what you do, because you are such a 'masochist' and 'misanthrope'.

What is unsettling is that people don't change overnight......the ending does not mean Joe would do any better in Florida than he did in NY........He would use any money he had to get a room in Florida, but then what.
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Only someone, as 'miserable' as you, would take this outlook. You don't DO anything to help yourself, so project all your own fears and insecurities onto the rest of the world. You can only see things in terms of your own 'self-absorbed' image and 'self-entitled' outlook. You hate to think of somebody, actually empowering themselves and having a 'positive' outlook on life. It really galls you doesn't it, seeing someone making an effort in life and be 'giving' of themselves, without any 'unreasonable' and 'selfish' conditions attached? You are the perfect example, of what a spoiled rotten upbringing, does to a person.

[–] swb95 10 years ago

...That escalated quickly.

[–] rascal67 10 years ago

...That escalated quickly.
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LOL. It has in part, been brewing over, for quite some time. The poster 'Inherently Deluded', is just that and the 'Yours' part in his user name, is in reality his own stuff and cr@p. He doesn't want to deal with it, so he 'pathetically' attempts to give it away, in the hope that others might know his suffering. He is in fact, 'insufferable'.

[–] Edward_de_Vere 10 years ago

The world wasn't really cruel to Joe, he made it cruel for himself by his own actions and idealism.

Wanting to be a male prostitute is a rather sorry excuse for "idealism."

Nevertheless, I agree with your point, Joe's lot in life wasn't the fault of society, his own naivete and less than stellar intelligence was mostly to blame.

The point is that going back to working at a diner (or, according to what he says to Ratso, a job as a landscaper) would be a big step forward for Joe, whether it was in west Texas or in Florida. Realizing that he's not cut out for the life of a hustler was in itself a triumph for him.

[–] InherentlyYours 10 years ago

'Wanting to be a male prostitute is a rather sorry excuse for "idealism." '
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Not for him. He was a certain type who glorified the idea, like being a porn star; having women pay him for his services and live the easy life.

Realizing that he's not cut out for the life of a hustler was in itself a triumph for him.
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I don't know if it's that easy to realize that. If you have a certain desire in your blood, it's not so easy to let go of it. If he started working in construction, he may do what he did in Texas when he quit his dish washing job. I'm not saying people can't change, but it's not like he spent that long in transition. It didn't seem like he was in NYC that long (remember the dream he had with him and Ratzo at poolside in Florida with woman all around?)

[–] rascal67 10 years ago

I'm not saying people can't change, but it's not like he spent that long in transition. It didn't seem like he was in NYC that long.....
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Because YOU can't change, doesn't mean that others are in the same 'sad' and 'pathetic' package, that you came with. Why does it matter how long he was in NY for? That is not the point of the film. You are now AVOIDING the message and placing YOUR own insecurities and self-absorptions onto Joe—a 'fictional' character—as though he should act and DO what you DO. What an 'absolute' and 'tragic', sorry state of affairs you are.

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[–] InherentlyYours 10 years ago

I thought the male >female prosties were called "gigolos."

[–] Edward_de_Vere 10 years ago

(remember the dream he had with him and Ratzo at poolside in Florida with woman all around?)

That was Ratso's fantasy (he's the one obsessed with Florida), it's shown from his POV in the scene where he's watching Joe trying to "score" with the upscale woman in the hotel lobby. In the fantasy, Ratso is not only able-bodied but able to beat Joe in a race across the beach, and the whole fantasy fades as soon as Ratso sees the girl smack Joe across the face.

It was a great scene because it showed that the "street smart" Ratso was just as naive as Joe.

[–] fanaticita 9 years ago

Male prostitutes are also known as rent-boys and hustlers. I think rent-boy is sort of a new term. . .

[–] Grammaw_Oddree 9 years ago

Do ya think that maybe the fact the his mother gave him away to his grandmother who sexually abused him, the fact the he is illiterate,or the fact that he was ganged raped might have had something to do with his delusional, destructive behavior? I guess you think that he should have just shrugged all that off, pulled himself up by his collective bootstraps, became "born-again" and gotten a job in a factory where if he worked really hard, could have become the next republican candidate for president.

[–] InherentlyYours 9 years ago

Are you asking or telling? I think if there's flaw in the film it's the flashback scenes are too ambiguous , especially for 69's audiences (compared to Prince of Tides, for example) I saw no implication that Joe was sexually assaulted by his mother/grandmother unless you are drawing from the book. Am I missing some footage, I don't think so.

Who said Joe is illiterate and that mentally unhinged? I don't even think his dreams of being a male escort was delusional, since there were male escorts (like the man Rasto ripped off the card from). Joe just didn't go about it the right way.

Republican candidate? So, you're painting some sarcastic black and white picture of it. (there's always some obligatory political reference on every board, I tell ya) The truth is, men like Joe Buck do get factory jobs, and sexually abused young boys and girls do obtain everyday working jobs. So, I don't see your point. Being a whore is not the sole way to make a living, nor only what abused people resort to. He thought it would be a helluva good time, and easy money. I don't judge him for wanting to be a male escort, only that his decision to be one does not mean it was trauma-induced.

[–] PrometheusTree64 9 years ago

I saw no implication that Joe was sexually assaulted by his mother/grandmother unless you are drawing from the book. Am I missing some footage, I don't think so.

You didn't?? Gee, I did.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA

[–] rascal67 9 years ago

There have been several posters that have claimed this. I never got this out of the film. I haven't read the book yet; but if you have, was this implied\stated? If you could please point out the part of the film that does imply sexual abuse of Joe by his grandmother.

Exorcist: Christ's power compels you. Cast out, unclean spirit.
Destinata:💩

[–] PrometheusTree64 9 years ago

I haven't read the book, InherentlyRascal, it's in the movie.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA

[–] rascal67 9 years ago

Telling me that it's in the movie, isn't pointing out what part that suggests Joe was sexually abused by his grandmother. That is what I asked. And no, I am not a sock of Inherently Yours.

Exorcist: Christ's power compels you. Cast out, unclean spirit.
Destinata:💩

[–] prismabird 9 years ago

Scenes where the movie suggests sexual abuse:

Little Joe's grandmother moans and kisses him in a very sensual way when he gives her a massage.

She calls him 'her lover boy'.

She presses him against her breasts and kisses him again while she, he, and a scantily clad Woodsy are in bed together.

She has him strip naked and lay across her lap while she spanks him.

She's seen giving him an enema.

Joe seems to connect her in his mind with both his rape and teenage sexual experiences (walking in on him and Annie, for example).

Joe declares that he's "only ever been good for lovin' (sex)' suggesting that he's developed his entire self worth around sexually pleasing people.

Each scene, taken alone, gives the impression of, "wow, that's uncomfortable!" or "that's inappropriate!" All of them together, especially intercut with a rape scene, send an unmistakable message. A viewer could explain away one strange moment or two* (for example, enemas can be given for medical reasons), but all of them?

If you don't think that those scenes suggest sexual abuse, what do you think they suggest? What was Schlesinger trying to convey about Joe, or his grandmother, or the story, or the theme?

*except the spanking. Striping a child to spank them is frank sexual abuse.

[–] rascal67 9 years ago

What generation are you? This was a different era and children getting bared bottomed spanked was not unusual or uncommon. You are reading way too much into it, due to today's pc sensibilities and mentalities. The Grandmother was being doting and affectionate at other times, as grandmothers often are. The term "lover boy" would have been used as term of endearment and she was probably someone who teased Joe about wooing the ladies when he got older. Joe giving his grandmother a massage and the moans she makes, are the moans of an old lady who was enjoying the massage sensation and giving Joe encouragement that he was doing it right. She ran a beauty shop didn't she?

She would have longed for older male company and when she did have a beau, she looked contented and included Joe in her happiness. She even left him movie money when she went out on a date. This could be seen as a brush off, or even neglect of Joe, or that she was just being generous, as parents\guardians did\do go out on their own at times if they felt the child is capable of taking care of themselves for a while. You also see images of Young Joe angry and smashing things, as children can often do when they are unhappy about something. I doubt it would be because Grandma touched his wee wee.

The film intercuts Joe's happy and sad memories with his grandmother, with his relationship with Annie and the sexual abuse he and the girl were subjected too, by the town thugs. There is nothing in this film that suggests to me that Joe's grandmother "sexually abused" him. Is this what you want to read into it, too make it more interesting and insidious? If so, then that says more about you. The sexual abuse came in the form of a group of redneck males.

Joe wasn't that bright and I doubt his grandmother was that sharp either; but for the most part he would have been loved. Who Joe ended up being and his happy go lucky attitude, would have been attributed to his upbringing by his beautician grandmother. She was a normal and ordinary lady, who did her best to bring Joe up within her own means, in spite of life's capricious nature and the trials and tribulations it presents. That is what Schlesinger was attempting to convey. Dig!

Exorcist: Christ's power compels you. Cast out, unclean spirit.
Destinata:💩

[–] prismabird 9 years ago

Joe giving his grandmother a massage and the moans she makes, are the moans of an old lady who was enjoying the massage sensation and giving Joe encouragement that he was doing it right.

…Ew.

I've given my father numerous shoulder rubs. He never did that.

But, whatever guy. Most of the internet agrees with me, but you see what you want to see. Enjoy the movie. Try not to spank any bare child butts on your way out.

[–] rascal67 9 years ago

Please don't project your bare bottom smacking fetish onto me. You appear obsessed with it. An old lady receiving a massage from her grandson in this film, who she has taken care of and was making a "non-sexual" pleasurable moan, was not intended to be taken any other way, other than that of gratitude. This tremendous film, chose to tell Joe's younger days in memory flashback, so therefore a tad heightened for sensationalism. I find it astounding that so many people misinterpret the character motivations in this film, that has a simply told story, and this includes Joe and Ratso being "gay" for each other. Where does all of this come from and what is this need to complicate it and find things that don't really exist?

Exorcist: Christ's power compels you. Cast out, unclean spirit.
Destinata:💩

[–] InherentlyYours 9 years ago

'Try not to spank any bare child butts on your way out.'
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Yes, I sense butts are up your alley.
That fact that most of "internet" agrees with you means that greatness is not measured in numbers, as the saying goes.

[–] rascal67 9 years ago

Perhaps we shouldn't ruin prismabird's take on the film. They will now have to accept the simple reality and intention of the film and it might not make it so enjoyable for them, if there are no non-existent subtexts to intellectualize. Their insecurity about others thinking they might not be clever, has led them to believe that posturing and complicating something, will make them appear impressive in the eyes of others. As far as I'm concerned, that only makes them plain as day phony.

Exorcist: Christ's power compels you. Cast out, unclean spirit.
Destinata:💩

[–] 9 years ago

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[–] rascal67 9 years ago

Joe Buck wasn't that sharp and even Ratso made a sarcastic claim about this to Joe. I also don't get any implication from the film which I have seen countless times, that Joe was sexually abused by his grandmother. There is a flashback of her spanking him...big deal! It is quite clear that Joe was raped, along with his girlfriend; but I doubt he would have engaged in homosexual activity to make quick cash, if this experience was so disturbing to him.

Exorcist: Christ's power compels you. Cast out, unclean spirit.
Destinata:💩

[–] tthomaslew76-234-269609 9 years ago

Well, it's good to know you found the film admirable.

My problem with so many people who post on IMDB is that they cannot separate between liking a film themselves and recognizing a great film. There are many great films such as "Midnight Cowboy" that people don't personally like, but don't be a fool and say it's garbage.

This movie is one of my favorites, not b/c it makes me happy when I watch it. That is not the point of the movie at all. People don't get that the 3rd main character in the film is New York City. And the truth is MOST people don't make it in New York and the movie shows how cold, heartless and brutal the city can be.

But, this film had a powerful impact on me, and will on anyone who pays attention to film. In some ways, it plays like a documentary with it's brutal realism. Well, that's all for now!