I see that in this movie Ben Gazzara (under rated actor) makes use of a captured German mp40 submachine gun. Is this realistic? Would it have been prefarable to the US made Thompson or 'grease gun' both of which were chambered to .45' calibre and surely would have had better stopping power than the 9mm bulletts of the 'Schmeisser'.
Anybody got some opinions on this?
I`ve read various British veterans comment that the M.P. 40 was much more reliable,accurate than the standard Sten & preferable(if one could be found) as it also used the same ammo.
I can`t speak for the merits of the Thompson compared with the M.P. 40 but did read somewhere that the "Grease Gun" was not particularly popular with U.S. troops.
Likewise many Germans fighting on the Eastern front would use the Russian PPsh over the M.P. 40 .Of course the downside of using an enemy weapon is if you get captured with it your captors would be more inclined to put a bullet in you rather than take you prisoner(maybe this was preferable on the Eastern front.)
Many people did pick up and use captured German weapons. Now, if he had a Thompson I don't think he would have (Almost everybody wanted a Thompson, and by the late war if you weren't issued one as a seargant, the only way you got one was by taking it off a dead guy).
However, being a Sgt, he might have been issued a M1 Carbine or M3A1 Grease Gun, and hence picked up an MP-40 instead. M1 Carbines were notoriously inaccurate at range, and were relatively weak.
As to being realistic.... Officially it was discouraged, you didn't want to cut loose with a burst on a Schmeisser and get gunned down by a Thompson carrying GI who mistook you for a German. But many American troops would pick up German automatic weapons in lieu of their Carbines, Garands, or Grease Guns (As The Khazi pointed out, the Greaser was not that popular. It was lighter than a Thompson, but couldn't spit out rounds nearly as fast. And it wasn't as accurate.
German rifles were almost never picked up, mainly because the M1 Garand was superior to the Kar 98k and Gewehr 43 (which was primarily found on the eastern front).
Slightly OT, but if you'll notice the Carbines used in the movie are the postwar M2 Carbine. Though designed in October of 1944, it's only wartime use was very limited in the Pacific. You can tell they are M2 Carbines because George Segal fires his in full auto, something that could not be done with a semi-auto M1.
Also, these M2s have bayonet lugs and adjustable sights, which were not standard on the M1 Carbine in WW2. A very few M1s with like this were issued, but that vast majority of M1 Carbines had no bayonet lugs, flat bolts, and flip up sights.
In his own book following "Band of Brothers", Sgt Bill Guarnere stated that he lost his rifle on the jump into Holland but found a Schmeisser and used it for just a few moments when he discovered that it's distinctive sound attraced American fire in his direction, and so he got rid of it in a hurry.
Believe it or not, there are currently BB guns on the market which look so much like a real MP40 that you could stick up a 7 to 11 with one. Also Thompson M1As in BB gun form.
A WW II gun expert has written that the MP40 and MP42 were not even made by Schmeisser. GI's finding one would see the name Schmeisser on the magazine and mistakenly think the entire weapon was a Schmeisser product, and so the legend grew. Schmeisser only made the magazine. True or false?
"Schmeisser" in reference to the MP40 was so widespread it found its way into films made long after the war. For some reason, in films, it is chiefly British characters who call it that. "Jerry Schmeisser" and so forth. I've never heard an American soldier call it a Schmeisser in a movie, only British troops.
Schmeisser was a gun manufacturer, though. And although they didn't make the MP40, they helped design it. Despite this, I still don't know why Allied troops called it that, because even though Schmeisser did help design it as I said, I seriously doubt the average Allied soldier knew or care about the design history of a particular German gun.
It's kind of interesting how Hollywood seems to think the MP40 was the standard issue weapon of the Wehrmacht instead of the K98. They would have us believe that nine out of ten German troops wielded the MP40, a gun usually reserved for officers and NCOs, just as they would have us believe most US troops used the Thompson. I guess audiences and filmmakers alike just prefer the rapid rat-tat-tat of a sub-machine gun vs. the single shot of regular bolt-action rifles. That and I suppose the firing stance of an SMG vs. a rifle plays a large part too.
"I mean, really, how many times will you look under Jabba's manboobs?"
first of all, apparently, the name schmeisser has nothing to do with the mp-40. hugo schmeisser invented the bergmann mp-18. secondly, i can understand that the sergeant might prefer the mp-40, but surely it wasn't allowed to use enemy weapons unless you were completely out of ammo, or your own gun jammed?
Gr. Arg.
Yes I think you`re right-Schmeisser was just a generic term used by the Allies to describe this & similar weapons, although as you rightly point out it was technically incorrect.I think the only connection between Mr Schmeisser & the MP 38/40 was that it was made at some of his factories.Staying with this weapon: does anyone know what the differences were between MP 38/40?
shareaccording to research, the mp40 was the upgraded mp38, the mp40 'utilised a minimum of machining operations and a maximum of sub-assemblies sub-contracted to a myriad of minor firms throughout the reich.' basically, it was cheaper to make, and the only difference in properties is that the mp38 weighed 9lb and the mp40 weighed 8lb 12oz, because of the different types of metal. but other than that, they both had a rate of fire of 500 rpm and muzzle velocities of 1250 fps. (whatever muzzle velocity is)
i hope this explains what you wanted to know.
Gr. Arg.
Muzzle velocity is the speed at which the fired round is travelling immediately it leaves the muzzle of the weapon.
sharethe mp38 and mp40 were made by the german firm 'erma'
Gr. Arg.
Howdy tom202,
You're not actually supposed to use enemy weapons, you're supposed to use the weapon you're issued. That being said, these guys are frontline combat troops (actually reconnaissance troops, so they're ahead of the front line) in a world war. Wise officers and NCOs are gonna look the other way, as long as the unit is in combat and the job gets done. Most of this uniformity of appearance and accountability for issued weapons is only a big factor in the peacetime military. You balance the risks of uncertain resupply and being shot at mistakenly by your own side against using the "better" weapon. If you wait 'til you're completely out of ammo to look for another weapon, you're apt to die. If your gun jams, you probably weren't doing proper maintenance on it and deserve to die.
"I don't know man, I just got here meself!"
cheers, wiking5.
Gr. Arg.
Thanks for all the info.I`ve just checked Small Arms of ww2 by Alan Weeks & he states that a firm called "Erma" did indeed manufacture the M.P. 38/40 although he also mentions the fact that Hugo Scmeisser was involved in the RE-DESIGN of the M.P. 38 to the new model 40.
shareThe Allies also made use of the MG 42 LMG which was a far superior squad automatic weapon than the 30 cal Browning LMG or the BAR. The BAR only had a 20 round clip while an MG 42 could spit out a 250 round belt of 8mm Mauser in 15 seconds.
What are they doing? Why do they come here?
Some kind of instinct, memory, what they used to do.
There was a also a special Mp40 with two magazines side by side. The idea was to slide the second clip into place as the other one ran out. Designed to match the russian 60 round pps90
shareThe only drawback to that high rate of fire is that the barrels had to be changed out constantly during combat. The 8MM is a very hot round. I have two 8MM Mausers and they can only fire so many rounds before I have to switch out and let em cool down.
Goddamit, I'd piss on a Spark Plug if I thought it would do any good! (Wargames, 1983)
"You're not actually supposed to use enemy weapons, you're supposed to use the weapon you're issued. That being said, these guys are frontline combat troops (actually reconnaissance troops, so they're ahead of the front line) in a world war. Wise officers and NCOs are gonna look the other way, as long as the unit is in combat and the job gets done. Most of this uniformity of appearance and accountability for issued weapons is only a big factor in the peacetime military. You balance the risks of uncertain resupply and being shot at mistakenly by your own side against using the "better" weapon. If you wait 'til you're completely out of ammo to look for another weapon, you're apt to die. If your gun jams, you probably weren't doing proper maintenance on it and deserve to die. "
thats true, a similar thing happend in vietnam, us troops would would use ak47's instead of the m16's they had been issued due to early problems such as jamming and parts wearing out, unfortunately this had the same problems where you can get shot by your own side
On the subject of the MP40, is it just me or does it seem that in almost all films which the MP40 is used in, it is firing at a speed which makes it sound like an MG42 or something? This is especially noticeable in the film 'The Dirty Dozen', where all of the submachine guns, including the M3 greaser fire really fast.
Gr. Arg.
Yes. As far as I know, Thee rate of fire for the MP40 was slow compared to it's peers. The Thompson was quick and the PPsH was like a fire hose.
Goddamit, I'd piss on a Spark Plug if I thought it would do any good! (Wargames, 1983)
The sound effects you hear are not necessarily what the actual weapon sounded like. I have noticed on a lot of war films that spent cases are rarely seen leaving the ejection port. This tells me that blanks weren't used at all.
The Germans never produced a rifle even close to the overall quality of the US M1 Garand rifle. The US M3 submachine gun served well into the 1970's and maybe is still around in some circles.
John
[deleted]
On the other hand, Gazzara's character may have carried the MP40 in case he had to do something similar to what he did to the American major at the end of the film, just in a more permanent and unobserved way (i.e., frag him). He almost did it to Segal's character after he shot the boy, if you recall.
Authority is the aqua regia of golden character.
Thought I'd weigh in on this one. No first hand experience, mind you, but I had read, and heard from vets of the era, as one other correspondent noted, that GIs frequently picked up the AK47 in the Vietnam era because of the "teething" troubles with the M16 at the time. I understand that a lot of the guys on the Long Range Recon Patrols preferred to carry the AK, not least because they could resupply ammo along the way from any enemy contact they had. Though of course, the recon types tended to avoid that contact if at all possible. They would still go out loaded for bear, as it were, with as much ammo as they could possibly haul for whatever weapon they carried.
As for the lore of picking up the enemy's weapons: Otto Skorzeny actually tried to convince the Wehrmacht high command to make knock-off copies of the Sten gun, which he felt was more compact, tougher, more reliable, and could be equipped with a silencer. Ideal for his outfit's commando style operations. They never bit on this proposition.
I think the notion that the grass-is-always-greener comes in to play upon occasion, too. In the novel "Cross of Iron" upon which the famous Peckinpah movie starring James Coburn is based, the anti-hero of the yarn picks up a Russian sub machine gun, referred to in the English translation as a "Tommygun." Alternately, in a Russian novel called "Days and Nights" about the siege of Stalingrad, the Soviet sergeant at the center of that tale picks up a German sub machine gun, and damned if the English translation of that one also refers to the piece as "Tommygun." I think at one point in time during the forties and fifties, there was a cultural tendency to think of all SMG's as "Tommyguns," even if they were anything but Thompson M1928s or M1A1s. . .
Anyone familiar with these tendencies or these books, feel free to weigh in anytime. Fascinating blog. Good flick, too.
"I'm not from here, I just live here. . ."
-James Mc Murtry
When I was 12 years old I met a few WWII vets as I was living in Portsmouth, England and I was lucky enough to attend the opening of the D-Day Museum. We had a long chat with an ex-SAS soldier who parachuted into France. I distinctly remember him saying a few of the men preferred the Schmeisser as it had a less vigorous recoil than many sub machne guns and rifles, and as mentioned before was more reliable and not prone to jammming.
shareI always figured that Angel carried the mp40 because it was another piece of his loot. It would not have been very easy to haul around an extra long arm. This way he could use it and then sell or trade it when the opportunity arose.
share