I do not believe that they were intimate with Anne Boleyn & im sure the King didnt either but for his own ends, he allowed them to be used, knowing they would have to die.
I also dont believe she had an affair with Mark Smeaton. It seems a shame that most likely it was ALL entirely false & none of them could do anything to save themselves!
By today's standards, Henry would probably be considered a psychopath. As he gained in years his desire to have a son became so all consuming that it apparently ate away at every other facet of his personality, including his conscience, to the point that it became his sole defining aspect. It seems as though whatever legitimate concerns he might have once had about a male heir ensuring stability upon his death fell wayside to wanting to reaffirm his own masculinity-- as though the inability to produce a male heir was somehow a mark against his being a "real man."
Henry's reign is littered with the bodies of men and women who didn't do anything particularly wrong other than either question him or be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Henry would eventually go on to consign Cromwell to a particularly brutal beheading at the hands of a novice who non-fatally struck him twice with the axe before finally hitting his mark. Although Henry would claim that the reason was Cromwell's questionable handling of the monastery dissolutions, it would appear that Henry knew about this for some time and turned a blind eye. His execution does, however, strangely coincide with the dissolution of Henry's marriage to Anne of Cleves, which Cromwell facillitated by showing Henry her portrait and suggesting that a marriage would help to form an alliance between England and Germany. One of (admittedly many) prevailing views is that Henry had Cromwell killed because, essentially, he set him up on a bad date.
In some ways, his obsession with having a son can be understood. A generation or so earlier, England had gone through the Wars of the Roses...a period of civil war with different factions warring for power and the throne. It was Henry's father, Henry VII, former Duke of Richmond, who triumphed in the final battle against Richard III (probably Richard wasn't as black and Henry VII wasn't as white as Shakespeare painted them) and brought peace back to England.
None of this would have been far from Henry's mind as he considered his country's future. It was unheard of at the time for a woman to rule alone (oh, Hal, you didn't know the half of it, did you?) and Henry knew that Mary, if she was his sole heir, would have to marry--either a foreign prince, which would cause trouble, since he felt the people would never accept the rule of a foreign king, or one of the higher nobles in the land, which would probably cause even MORE trouble with the other great families of the realm being resentful and plotting and forming factions and maybe starting the whole damn civil war all over again.
And suppose anything had happened to Henry BEFORE Mary came of age? Every great family in the land would be jostling to be named her regent.
So I can see why Henry became so obsessed with having a legitimate son. Of course, there WAS the issue of his masculinity too. When one courtier questioned his ability, Henry ROARED, "AM I NOT A MAN LIKE OTHER MEN?!"
None of this, of course, excuses what he did to others who stood in his way, but it does explain why the concern would have taken over his mind. But as for his treatment of anyone who crossed him...well, it only goes to show what happens when you put absolute power in the hands of a spoiled child.
Obviously it is hard to determine whether Henry genuinely believed that his wife had an affair, or whether he understood that such charges were completely false. I personally suspect that he was willing to overlook any obvious flaws of the case in order for him to secure a break from Anne, so he could marry another and have the son he wished. There are several notable historians who would disagree with me, arguing that Henry was surprised by the allegations and genuinely believed that Anne was guilty. I think they are being a bit too nice to Henry as the same man who was apparently shocked and hurt by the charges, also managed to get engaged the day after his wife’s execution. Sounds like someone who was not taken completely unaware by the situation!
However whichever of these viewpoints we affirm, one thing is obvious. Henry allowed the executions to take place. He did not support his wife or the men. He did not attempt to save any of the men, although we know that the French ambassador petitioned for the life of one of the men (Francis Weston), along with Weston’s parents. Henry was a man who was willing to treat family members and friends in an extreme manner if they defied him. His treatment of the men accused clearly shows that he agreed with the guilty verdicts, that they had slept with his wife and plotted treason, thus they were traitors and to be treated as such. The only act of mercy he was willing to concede was that their style of execution was to be less severe (beheading rather than being drawn to the place of execution, hung, and quartered – the traditional punishment for traitors).
If Henry was able to treat his wife in such a distant manner, and this was a woman who Henry had been passionately in love with for around 8/9 years and arguably was the love of his life, then it is hardly surprising that he would act against former friends and brother-in-law. What mattered ultimately to Henry was security of his position and preservation of his line and he was willing to act severely against any threat to these things.
‘Noli me tangere; for Caesar's I am’
Just think how different history would be if Catherine of Aragon had had a son who had lived! Henry would probably only have had affairs & never divorced her etc
shareYes, but then Elizabeth would never have been queen and god knows how far that would have put women's rights back.
SAVE DARFUR
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
Elizabeth did not magically bring women's rights to peoples' attention, there were many other successful female rulers.
What I speak is random, even for a nerdfighter.
"..this was a woman who Henry had been passionately in love with for around 8/9 years and arguably was the love of his life.."
I have always believed that he considered Jane Seymour the love of his life, for 2 reasons, she gave him a son & she died before he could become bored with her! I dont believe she could have held his interest for very long, the way Anne Boleyn did.
I have always believed that he considered Jane Seymour the love of his life, for 2 reasons, she gave him a son & she died before he could become bored with her! I dont believe she could have held his interest for very long, the way Anne Boleyn did.
I just watched this film again as i got the dvd this week, it was on my mind about his friends & how he allowed them to be sacrificed!! Imagine my suprise that i had already asked this question!!
Its bad enough that he executed Anne, there were reasons for that, no matter that it was madness, i wonder how people felt about being close to Henry VIII after that, considering what he had done to Thomas More also. Even the musicians couldnt have felt safe!!
Hard violent times!! & it was done under the law!!! What chance did anyone have!!!
In those days it was risky to be close to any ruler. It was the price most paid gladly for the chance for great wealth and position that would come from being close to the king. Life expectancy was much shorter then and I have always thought that was why people would willingly take such risks. Also there is no accounting for greed.
shareI think Anne was his grand passion, a passion that eventually, of course, burned itself out; I believe that Jane Seymour was his ideal of romantic love, for she was sweet and unquestioning and provided him with a son.
shareHenry's insistence that a queen regnant would never work dates way back. The whole start to the War of the Roses was basically that Henry IV took the throne after the deposition of Richard II with the argument that even though there was another heir next in line before Henry, it was an 11 year old girl, and nobody wanted another minor on the throne, much less a girl minor. And really the whole queen regnant argument went back to Henry I's daughter, Matilda, who should have had the throne back in 1135, the squabbling over which caused a civil war lasting 19 years. Every time it looked like a girl would inherit in her own right, it led to major trouble, and Henry was no dumb student when it came to English history. His own father made sure to claim the English throne through right of conquest (always iffy because what has been conquered once can be conquered again by someone else) rather than his own bloodline, which was tainted with bastardy, or through his wife, the eldest daughter of Edward IV. Henry's argument against a female heir was "it has never worked in the whole history of England." Pretty strong motivation.
"The Rise and Fall of Anne Boleyn" makes an interesting case for why Henry and/or Cromwell chose these particular 5 men to accuse with Anne. Accusing a Queen publicly of adultery and treason and then beheading her or even just getting rid of her permanently was not easy, as Catherine of Aragon's case had showed. They needed to discredit Anne entirely, give reasons to make any sane person think she deserved what she got. Despite the fact that some of these men were Henry's friends, they were also known to be libertines. So the official line goes something like this:
"Anne, the Queen, despised her sovereign lord and her marriage before God SOOOOOOOO much that she not only screwed around, but she screwed around with not 1, ladies and gentlemen, not 2, but 3 men, all of whom are known to be sexually depraved - who would have sex with any available woman, man, girl, boy, nun, priest, and the occasional sheep or goat. And to top that, she's such a loose woman that she didn't even keep her sex within the noble faction. She slept with a common musician! Oh no, it's perfectly true! AND, not content with even that, she is such a slut that she even slept with her BROTHER! Can you believe it? Of course, His Majesty is just heartbroken and of course he cannot possibly stay married to such a harlot, now, can he? To protect himself, to protect the kingdom, to protect the succession, he must, must be rid of her asap. Even though we did push an annulment through, thanks to the kindly efforts of the Archbishop of Canterbury, even though they weren't really married at all, legally, you see, it still stains His Majesty's honor, to even be associated with such a woman. So see? He has never really legally been married at all! And even if you think Katherine of Aragon was his true wife, well, she's dead now, isn't she? So His Majesty is really just an innocent bachelor and must find a bride and queen asap. (Actually, we have one waiting in the wings, but it wouldn't be polite to say so, what with the trial and execution and all still to take place... Did I say 'execution'? Oh, well, I mean if Anne is found guilty of course.)"
Yikes.
I'd imagine back then if you weren't ruthless and showed any sign of weakness the would put you under too. I wouldn't have wanted to live back then no way no how. Humans are horrible to eachother
''MY Elizabeth SHALL BE QUEEN! And my blood will have been well spent!'' Anne Boleyn
I think that Henry was probably aware of the false charges. It's possible though that, in order to ease his conscience of the guilt of having murdered his wife, he might actually have started believing those charges later.
If you want an excuse for something and you go over it in your mind again and again, without anybody telling you that it's not true (and nobody would tell the King of course), then you MIGHT just start believing your own excuses at some point.
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Henry would sacrifice anyone to gain his ends. His own daughters were not immune. His older daughter Mary (by Katharine of Aragon)was imprisoned and forced to wait upon his daughter Elizabeth (with Anne Boleyn)Both daughters were bastardized, and Elizabeth removed from court and neglected after Anne Boleyn's death. Thomas More who had been a close friend and mentor was beheaded when he refused to accept Henry's self-appointment as head of the Church in England.
It was better to be a peasant than a highly placed person in Henry's court.
"..sure you won't change your mind? Why, is there something wrong with the one I have?"
"It's to Richard Burton's credit that he produced even an ounce of sympathetic feeling to his portrayal of the king here. Same with Jonathan Rhys-Meyers in "The Tudors". "
I was horrified by "The Tudors". Nightmarish telling of unimaginable acts perpetrated by a subhuman monster called Henry VIII, and carried out by people who were afraid that the same fates might befall them.
I believe Richard Burton was one of the great actors hired in Hollywood, but this movie pales in comparisons to "The Tudors" series. As pointed out Rhys-Meyers had five years to develop the character, and 40 episodes to portray the "man" if you can call the monster known as Henry VIII by such a word.
I've read a lot of biographies and the closest I ever got to Henry VIII was Josef Stalin.
Stalin came to power by shoving the rightful guy out of the way, so did Henry's father. They ruled waiting for somebody ready to do it to them and dealt with people as if each one was out to betray them.
Both ruled through terror. They were dangerous men to be around but the danger escalated as people became closer to them
They both had a pattern of allowing advisors to get close and then calling them traitors when something went sour and executing him.
Stalin may have had his wife murdered. Henry....(wellllll )
Henry was considered a hero of the Catholic faith, Stalin was an Orthodox Seminarian. Both participated in the destruction of their respective churches later in life.
Of course it's tempting to compare Adolph Hitler at the same time, but he was just plain bat-sh!t crazy. These guys knew exactly what they were doing. It's their values that were screwed up. Hitler thought whatever he did was right, the other two didn't care.
Henry is basically everything that is wrong with the idea of Royalty wrapped up in one package.
It is richly ironic that, after HVIII having done so many destructive things out of the conviction that a queen regnant was not a good idea, England has had so many queens regnant!:
Jane Grey
Mary I
Elizabeth I
Mary II
Anne
Victoria
Elizabeth II
God is subtle, but He is not malicious. (Albert Einstein)
And well before the medieval period, too!
shareThanks for reminding me. Who can forget Boadicea?
God is subtle, but He is not malicious. (Albert Einstein)
Or Queen Cartimandua of the Brigantes?
Athelflaed wasn't a Queen, but she was 'Lady of the Mercians' and Alfred the Great's daughter, who led military campaigns from 911-18?
Let's remember Queen margaret of Anjou, Henry VI's wife, who also led military forces in her husband's name in the War of the Roses?
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cause he had no idea HOW to be a friend.
and who cares about friends if they are going to throw you under the bus or pull shi7 because they know you will get them cleared? that is complete and utter bullchit!
Oh God. Fortune vomits on my eiderdown once more.