MovieChat Forums > The Lion in Winter (1968) Discussion > Richard the Lionheart was not GAY!

Richard the Lionheart was not GAY!


I was so mad at the portrayal of Richard the Lionheart in this film. I remember my Muslim co-worker took particular delight in mentioning that Richard the Lionheart was gay and I was incredulous to believe that. Richard the Lionheart was a leader of the third crusade so he is probably reviled by many Muslim historians.

While he did share a bed with Philip, this was apparently a custom designed to strengthen political alliances. The article below also notes that communal beds were not unusual in the olden days.

Richard had an illegitimate son and eventually got married. There is no justification for Hopkins to portray him as an effeminate homosexual. The whole story is fictional so the writer was just defecating on the graves of historical figures.

https://norwichvoice.ca/viewpoint/richard-the-lionheart-gay/

https://www.interesly.com/history-of-bed-in-medieval-and-early-modern-times/

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Paranoid much?

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A man can be brave & strong & a fearless warrior, and still be gay.

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I agree. This post is only concerns Richard the Lionheart. Do you agree that there is not sufficient evidence to make a claim that he was a homosexual? He had a son and married a woman. The average viewer would conclude that Richard was gay after watching this movie BUT the movie is pure fiction.

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There does seem to be a consistent narrative through the centuries about him being at least bisexual. Or, he may well have been gay, but married & had a child because that's what was expected of a king. Or he may simply have experimented as young man. Or he may have been straight. We really don't know.

And in any case, the film itself is presented as a story, not as history. We've seen countless wildly different depictions of historical figures in many films, so why should this one be an exception?

Still, I can understand your feelings, because I've felt the same way when some figure or moment in history that's dear to me has been depicted much differently from the way I'd always perceived it. My response these days is, "Well, that's how they told the story, it's not how I tell it."

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You're just spewing anti-gay rhetoric in the guise of seeking knowledge.
Next you'll be claiming offense at Richard Dreyfus's "Richard III" in The Goodbye Girl.
It doesn't take long for the choir to fall asleep when you preach at it.

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Richard Dreyfus's "Richard III" in The Goodbye Girl.

MAN WAS HE GOOD IN THAT.

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My post is not anti-gay. I'm educating people about history and a false portrayal of Richard the Lionheart. The whole play and movie were fictional. None of the events portrayed in this film actually happened. I'm just disappointed that they took historical figures and concocted a fantasy. I have always maintained that significant cultural/historical people should be accurately portrayed in films, shows, etc.

For the record, Richard the Third and Richard the Lionheart are not the same person. Richard the Third died in 1485 and Richard the Lionheart died in 1199. I would never publicly admit that I watched The Goodbye Girl and I have zero interest in that film.

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Please. Your post is rabidly anti-gay. News flash for you: gazillions of gay men have married women & sired children. Didn't make them any less gay.

As for your excuse of just being concerned about historical accuracy: LIW is a dramatic entertainment, not a documentary. Also, cases could be made for Richard being gay, straight or bisexual, based on historical evidence. Why would you care either way?

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Exactly. The only question is, does the portrayal work for the particular story being told, in the way that it's being told. And it does work for this film. These are the characters as written by the screenwriter, to tell the story he wanted to tell. That's what matters here.

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I disagree. If real people are the characters in a drama, real events should be represented and portrayals should closely match the biographical information for each historical person. It's important to remember that these are real people. They are not characters! If the artist wants to create a fantasy, they should not drag real people into their imaginary and nonsensical story. The average person will not know that this whole movie was fictional since real people were involved. The writer of this play took a dump on royals from 800 years ago and they could not defend themselves.

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There have been quite a few movies about historical characters, and quite often the portrayals of the same characters in different films have been very different. Again, The Lion in Winter is not a documentary, nor did it ever claim to be. It's an interpretation by an individual screenwriter who did a great deal of research, came to his own artistic conclusions about the characters, and used the historical framework to tell the story he wanted to tell. Besides, even historians can look at the source material about people from hundreds of years ago & come to very different conclusions about what they were like.

I understand that you disagree with this particular characterization of Richard intensely. And that's your right. Plenty of people would agree with you. And plenty others wouldn't.

Personally, I find the portrayal of Richard quite sympathetic, showing us the anguish & fear that he carries with him & that he dares not show to the world. He desperately wants his father's approval, as he's shown himself to be a strong, brave fighter. Even if he's gay, that doesn't change his strength & courage one bit. He's a complex man. And this portrayal makes him all the more human to my mind.

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"If real people are the characters in a drama, real events should be represented and portrayals should closely match the biographical information for each historical person."

Good thing Shakespeare didn't share your narrow-minded POV. Macbeth, Hamlet, and the histories would've been much lesser works.

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My post is not anti-gay. My post concerns Richard the Lionheart so the other gazillions of men who have purportedly married women and sired children are irrelevant. There is ZERO proof that Richard the Lionheart was gay.

I care about the accurate representation of historical characters. These are usually people who accomplished a lot and Hollyweird likes to tarnish their legacy for various reasons. Films usually hire historical consultants to advise the director on historical accuracy but they often quit out of frustration. The problem is that visual imagery from television and movies is much more powerful than the printed word. I will have to confess that I am more likely to learn about a historical figure from a movie instead of an 800 page book.

Richard the Lionheart has been dead for 800 so he cannot defend himself from these spurious accusations. It is up to me and other to defend his reputation. Long live the King! The first article below shows that he was married and the second article from a historian who refutes the gay rumors.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/03/berengaria-of-navarre-cursed-tomb-restored-france

http://the-history-girls.blogspot.com/2017/01/richard-lionheart-what-we-think-we-know.html

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Who cares??? 🙄

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Actually, he may have been. Some historians have speculated that he was, but since the royal chronicler of the era wouldn't have dreamed of writing honestly about homosexual relationships, there will never be anything but speculation.

He died without an heir, unusual for that era, but that has no bearing on his sexual orientation as in those days it didn't matter if you were gay - every last royal or aristocratic man was expected to enter an arranged marriage and father children! If Richard didn't marry while he was still a prince that was more due to political wrangling than his own preferences, he was engaged at least twice but politics kept the weddings from happening. He didn't marry until he was 34 and then it was politically expedient, he spent little time with his wife before they parted while he spent years in warfare and captivity. Yes, he was close enough to Phillip II of France to horrify his father, but as the "sleeping in the same bed" was part of a political alliance hostile to Henry, they were definitely political allies and nobody knows about the personal relationship. Richard supposedly had one illegitimate son, an unusually low number for the era.

So there's the possibility he actually was gay, but since standard historical practice has actively suppressed the stories of same-sex relationships for centuries, the history of homosexuals has been reduced to speculation and theorization.

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There is zero evidence in the historical record to support any accusations about him being gay. Based on my research, the only two major indicators were the shared bed with Philip and the hermit warning him not to sin. The hermit's warning did not specifically refer to homosexuality and sharing beds was common back then. I've shared beds with guys on a few sports/scouting trips but we always flipped to see who could sleep alone on the couch.

He was married and had an illegitimate son. He died at 41 so he could have possibly had a proper heir a few years later. Henry VIII had two wives beheaded and he divorced a couple more in his efforts to produce a male heir.

There has always been an effort by gay authors to out historical figures. It was an effort to advance the gay acceptance movement and there are efforts today to make further strides for gay people in various types of media. I personally believe DEAD people should not be misrepresented as homosexuals or anything else if there isn't enough documented proof.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/sep/14/richard-lionheart-battle-addict-france

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But there *can't* be the kind of proof you want to insist on, because the chroniclers and commentators of Richard's day refused to record anything about homosexual relationships, and so did historians for centuries afterwards. LGBT history was deliberately erased for centuries, and you want to continue the erasing process, by holding LGBT history to standards that are impossibly high, because of all the deliberate erasure that's come before you.

Which isn't to say that I believe Richard I *was* gay. He *might* have been gay or bi, there are enough possibilities that I don't think it was ridiculous to put that gay plot twist in "Lion in Winter" - it's as plausible as Alys being Henry's mistress (something that's also been speculated about by historians). Most writers of historical fiction do that, take speculation by historians and old unconfirmed rumors and write them into the story. And if you only approve of that when it involves heterosexual relationships being fictionalized, you can go fuck yourself.

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When this comes up (Richard’s preferences) I idly speculate if he was asexual, because this too is a possibility for people.
He may have been traumatized as a younger person.

I don’t think about it for long, because I feel like a voyeur; that’s just me. If his actions affected my life directly, then perhaps I’d…no.

That part of his life belongs to him.

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Hundreds of years of selective recording of information have made damn sure that his private life is still private!

We will never know, but it's not like speculating now is going to hurt his feelings.

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I guess if it does hurt his feelings then we are all in for a heck of a surprise after this life ;)

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