Lucille Ball as Helen - Valley of the Dolls (1967) Discussion

[–] laurelataylor 12 years ago

I really liked Susan Hayward's performance as Helen Lawson. I think that she was perfect for that role and wish that she had been in the movie more.

I don't think Lucille Ball could have pulled off Helen Lawson's tough broad persona the way Susan Hayward so believably did. Previously, Susan had played another character who was tough and rough around the edges in her Academy award-winning performance in I Want to Live!

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[–] smjensen312-158-669840 12 years ago

Oh, Lucille Ball would have had no trouble playing a hard as nails Helen Lawson. She just couldn't sing.

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[–] Harold_Robbins 12 years ago

Agreed, smjensen...Ball alienated more than a few co-workers over the years, but this was a persona she preferred not to allow her Lucy-loving public to see. As for the singing, the could have dubbed her, as they did Hayward (who, ironically, had done her own singing as Lillian Roth in I'LL CRY TOMORROW and, not long after DOLLS, as MAME in Las Vegas).

"In my case, self-absorption is completely justified."

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[–] smjensen312-158-669840 12 years ago

I heard Liz Taylor, who obviously didn't mince words referred to her as "Miss *beep* (see you next Tuesday).

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[–] EliotTempleton 9 years ago

Sinatra wanted Ball for Mrs. Iselin in The Manchurian Candidate, but she turned it down because she thought it would ruin her "image". What a stupid woman! She would have been superb in that role, but her loss was our and Angela Lansbury's gain. Off screen Ball was a humorless bitch, which means she could have played Helen to the hilt.

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[–] smjensen312-158-669840 9 years ago

I always thought she was great in The Big Street a Damon Runyon story about a self centered showgirl who is crippled by her mobster boyfriend. Her character is incredibly selfish and rude. Of course, it's questionable whether Ball was actually acting in that role.

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] libby2130 9 years ago

they would have dubbed her singing like they did with patty duke and ended up doing with susan haywards character (helen lawson)

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[–] monterey59 8 years ago

Lucy would have been pretty darn good in that role, but it would be "against-type" for her...

Even larks and katydids are, supposed by some, to dream

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[–] smjensen312-158-669840 8 years ago

Lucy would have been pretty darn good in that role, but it would be "against-type" for her...

Against her screen and TV persona, yes. As for her true persona, it would be spot on.

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[–] TheLightFantastic 12 years ago

Lucille Ball was offered the Helen Lawson role? Well, that's a new one! I can't imagine her in the role because I just think of comedy when I see her. I know this is borderline blasphemy but I never enjoyed Ball's work. I appreciate her work but I've never been fond of her acting.

I know she was reportedly hard as nails in real life, but I don't think she could have pulled off the role.

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[–] bradford-1 12 years ago

Ms. Ball's true persona was closer to helen Lawson than Lucy Ricardo, but the general public wouldn't have known that at the time.
"May I bone your kipper, Mademoiselle?"

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[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

Lucy would had been great, and could have played the bitchery in a more subtle way--the way Hayward could have. The same goes for Duke. Being bitchy is not always volume.

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[–] Loomis_Orange 12 years ago

That role called for caricature and no one done caricature like Lucy. Her with that snarl and that voice and that flaming red hair.. Yepper

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[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

The major irony is that Ball would be tangling with Duke in the film, only to have that happen in real life in 1970

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[–] moosefeathers 12 years ago

Eccchhhh. Hailllll No. I didn't even see Garland as Helen Lawson and that was one of her problems with this role -- that she couldn't seem to get mean enough.

Susan Hayward was perfect for this role.

I understand Bette Davis wanted this part too. As much as i love Davis, another no. She could have done it but this was truly Hayward's role.

(and if you ask me, i think the whole Garland/Hayward thing was a staged thing. I mean, would they really let Garland walk out with the clothes? I think not.)

Swing away, Merrill....Merrill, swing away...

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[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

There is more than one actor for a role--especially when that role requires singing. There are other women who could had played the role.

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[–] john-s-2 12 years ago

I think Lucy would have been Incredible in the role as Lawson. She was Hell-on-Wheels in real life and as she got older, reportedly she got worse. Plus, that Cigarette Voice of hers, YOWZA!

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[–] smjensen312-158-669840 12 years ago

"(and if you ask me, i think the whole Garland/Hayward thing was a staged thing. I mean, would they really let Garland walk out with the clothes? I think not.)"

Sadly, at that stage in her life Garland was not up to the rigors of a motion picture, so I think it would have been a miracle if she had staggered through the production, even if her role was not the biggest in the picture. Still, in spite of her addictions (which must have made the film hit home, especially since the character of Neely was obviously based on her) she had enough sense to realize this film was a real train wreck, with or without her participation. What I heard was that she encouraged them to fire her by locking herself in her dressing room and refusing to work. The studio let her keep the $50,000 fee she was paid upfront for her participation in the film, and they probably wrote off the costumes she walked off with as well (they wouldn't have fit Hayward, anyway).

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[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

It's not as if everybody needed to see her walk out with the clothes; she could had merely put it in her handbag.

But, I don't get how Neely is based on Garland,since Garland wasn't known for being a user and a bitch. So, if only part of Neely's behavior was based on her, we could say that about many women. Was Garland fired from a show like Neely? That was based on Betty Hutton's experience.

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[–] Harold_Robbins 12 years ago

"Was Garland fired from a show like Neely? That was based on Betty Hutton's experience."

Susann was smart enough to blur the line between fact and fiction just enough to avoid libel suits - Garland was fired from the film of ANNIE GET YOUR GUN.

"In my case, self-absorption is completely justified."

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[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

But there is still the part of Neely being a bitch. That wasn't Garland's rep,was it?

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[–] smjensen312-158-669840 12 years ago

Betty Hutton told everyone who would listen that she was fired from Panama Hattie by Ethel Merman, even though it wasn't true (she also used her role as a springboard for Hollywood). Almost everyone who worked with Hutton felt that despite her talent, she was thoroughly obnoxious and incredibly egocentric, even for a star. Her own daughters all refused to attend her funeral. She probably was closer to Neely O'Hara in temperament than Judy Garland was. I don't doubt that Ethel Merman was hard as nails, but she did not fire Betty Hutton.

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[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

Hutton,who was only somewhat successful,couldn't afford to be difficult. Is that what ruined her career?

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[–] smjensen312-158-669840 12 years ago

More or less. She replaced Judy Garland in Annie Get Your Gun, which was quite a coup, but she alienated the cast (especially Howard Keel) by being arrogant and demanding, and too obviously hungry for success. In 1954 she did a television special with a Western theme that laid a giant egg, partly because it was shot in color at a time when there were fewer than 10,000 color receivers in the United States, but also because her Texas size ego had completely repelled everyone she worked with. She announced (and than retracted) her retirement from show business later that year, but her career as a motion picture actress was pretty much over.

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[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

I can't fathom these lucky people who sabotage themselves. She sounded like a narcissist.
You know how she ended up,don't you?

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[–] smjensen312-158-669840 12 years ago

She became an alcoholic and was practically a bag lady. Then she found religion, converted to Catholicism and worked at a church in Rhode Island.

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[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

similar to Veronica Lake, who worked as a waitress or something

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[–] smjensen312-158-669840 12 years ago

I think Veronica Lake was actually schizophrenic, as well as alcoholic.

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[–] SimplemindedSociety 12 years ago

I rented her last film which she produced, FLESH FEAST

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[–] smjensen312-158-669840 10 years ago

Flesh Feast? Is that out on DVD? I've read about it (as one of the most ludicrous films of all time), but I've never seen it. She plays a Nazi scientist in it. Is it worth seeing?

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[–] markedjuan 10 years ago

When they clashed during the filming of Hello, Dolly!, Walter Mathau reportedly told Barbra Streisand, "Go ahead and walk off the set!!! Remember, Betty Hutton thought she was indispensible! Where is she now!!!"

Mathau then went to Richard Zanuck's office to vent his anger only to be reminded by the studio head that Streisand was indeed indispensible. He was told, "The movie isn't called 'Hello, Walter."

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[–] smjensen312-158-669840 10 years ago

Barbra Streisand is incredibly narcissitic and demanding. For all her talent, she is (like Hutton) unlikeable. I believe that Walter Matthau also told Streisand, "I have more talent in my smallest fart than you have in your entire body" Not exactly accurate, but something that diva needed to hear.

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[–] kamikaze-4 10 years ago

Flesh Feast? Is that out on DVD? I've read about it (as one of the most ludicrous films of all time), but I've never seen it. She plays a Nazi scientist in it. Is it worth seeing?

Uh, no. I am fan of low budget flicks- the Good, The bad, and the awful. Flesh Feast commits the unpardonable sin of being boring.

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[–] phillindholm 9 years ago

Garland would have been miscast as Helen Lawson. As good as she was, she wasn't strong enough for the part (such as it was). Yes, she could sing, but Hayward brought class and guts to the role, which was compensation enough for having her one musical number dubbed.

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[–] brendanchenowith 9 years ago

I know it's been well past 40 years after the fact, and Richard Dreyfus, Lee Grant and Barbara Parkins seem to be the only surviving cast members, BUT...to my OWN deathbed, I will always believe Garland would have made a great Helen Lawson and I know Fox has that footage and if there's any way in hell that footage can be released, for God's sake, please let it come out.

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked.

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[–] glennh69 9 years ago

I know Fox has that footage and if there's any way in hell that footage can be released, for God's sake, please let it come out.

It's doubtful there is footage to release. According to Patty's autobiography (and others associated with the production), Garland never even made it through one day of shooting. There's an outside chance there might be a few scenes, but she freaked out and holed up in her trailer with a stash of booze & pills and wouldn't come out.

Once just about everybody left the set, Garland eventually emerged, emboldened enough to face the camera--and allegedly said: Where is everybody? Of course, the scenario was eerie, as it reflected the essence of Neely--a character who was assumed to be based on Garland by Susann.

There are two widely available remnants of Garland's association with the production: her wardrobe screen test and the studio recording of I'll Plant my Own Tree . .that may be the extent of what remains.

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[–] ItsOnlyAllen 9 years ago

The most annoying thing is Helen is barely in the movie. If they had just shot Judy's scenes first and gotten them finished, it probably wouldn't have been a problem. But, to be honest, even tho I think Judy would have been wonderful in this movie, I'm really glad she didn't end up going through with it

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[–] InherentlyYours 9 years ago

Duke said Garland attempted to film a scene (it may have been their fight scene) but the words were not coming out right. But, Mark Robson didn't know Judy would freak out by arriving at 6am and waiting like the rest of the cast; that's normal procedure. The question is if Judy asked Robson if she could just come in later (or her agent) Duke says it was planned for PR, when they had no intention of using Judy, which is not necessarily true.

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[–] phillindholm 9 years ago

No, it's not, but, given Garland's ''troubled'' history, (both on and off screen) Robson should have anticipated what, in fact, ended up happening, once she arrived for the filming.

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[–] duked 9 years ago

Mark Robson and Susan Hayward were old friends. He directed Susan to her first Oscar nomination in 1949's My Foolish Heart. Susan is who he wanted for the role all along. He put up with Judy as the studio told him to. After they got the publicity they desired, they allowed Robson to get rid of Judy and hire his old friend Susan, his original choice.

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[–] InherentlyYours 9 years ago

After they got the publicity they desired, they allowed Robson to get rid of Judy and hire his old friend Susan, his original choice.
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How is this cynical plot a known fact, though? I realize Duke says so, but Mark is not here to discuss (along with some other deceased folks) It's made to sound like they hoped Judy would fail. Actually, I don't see why he would have Hayward as his first choice; there were more ideal casting choices.

Since Robson is not here, I'll assume the story is false.

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[–] 9 years ago

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