Don't Believe a Second of It - Two for the Road (1967) Discussion

[–] ElizabethJoestar (946) 4 years ago

You're not alone with that. I'm about the only Audrey Hepburn/Stanley Donen fan I know who's completely cold to this one.

I find a lot of people have a great love for this movie and good for them, but the two times I watched it, I found myself unable to care about the couple. In fact, I was rooting for Hepburn to up and leave Finney the entire time. He was so obnoxious. It went beyond him being a decent person with major flaws-- he was an outright ass.

A common ad hominem comeback by certain fans seems to be "you just can't relate" or "you've never been married" but even my parents-- who almost got divorced when I was a kid and who have had their share of fights over the years-- both found the depiction of marriage more Hollywood and unbelievable than anything. Of course, they're just one couple and not everyone's experience with marriage is the same, but I find the whole "this movie is perfect, you're just incompetent/not experienced enough to get it" angle the film's defenders often resort to against anyone who doesn't love it downright insulting.

Once again, more power to those who love this movie. There is certainly a lot to appreciate in terms of cinematography, acting (Hepburn does well playing an unusual role for her), and music (the Mancini score elicits more emotion from me than the story does). I just cannot get myself invested and by the end, I'm more annoyed than enervated.

I actually think this review states my disappointment with the movie best:

https://1001plus.blogspot.com/2017/09/marriage-gone-bad.html

It was kind of cathartic to read after being told "you're wrong" after failing to like the movie twice.

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[–] johnmiller (3889) 4 years ago

Great analysis! Thank you. Being a fan of both Hepburn and Donen, I OF COURSE wanted to love this movie! But, for the reasons we both discussed, I just don't think that it can be done.

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[–] TheArgentinian (7072) 3 years ago

you crazy. both were great. i bought it all

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[–] johnmiller (3889) 3 years ago

Do you want a cookie now? :-)

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[–] TheArgentinian (7072) 3 years ago

[deleted]

[–] johnmiller (3889) 3 years ago

Can't even take a joke = :-)

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[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

I totally believed it when I watched the movie, the actors were good enough to bring these flawed people to vivid life and to make me care about their relationship.

That doesn't mean I have any desire to see the film again, the actors were good and the film is stylish, but I can watch other people's relationship problems in real life, for free.

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[–] ElizabethJoestar (946) 3 years ago

I'm curious (and I mean this seriously): what do you think of the Mark character? I found him absolutely unlikable-- to the point where I wanted the marriage to end just so Joanna could get away from that selfish lout-- but many people seem to think he has some redeeming features and I'm just wondering what those might be.

I really want to like this movie-- I just cannot handle Mark and would like to hear another perspective to see if I can reconsider his characterization.

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[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

Mark was insufferable when young, so much so that I was amazed that Joanna stuck with him, but then she didn't have the maturity and self-confidence to stand up for herself., and I could see how a rather timid girl would find his blowhard self-confidence appealing. When he was older and wiser he was a bit easier to bear and kinda sexy, but I still wouldn't have him myself. That doesn't mean I was rooting for the marriage to break up or anything, I'm never sympathetic to anyone who wants to stick their kid with the life of a stepchild.

I think his pain-in-the-assitude was quite deliberate, it was mean to be the story of two people getting together and breaking up for reasons (almost), and he provided the reasons!

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[–] ElizabethJoestar (946) 3 years ago

I guess I never felt he matured enough to merit all the chances Joanna gave him. We definitely see the sexual appeal wears off for her eventually ("It's not personal anymore"). Between the casual cheating, the cruel words, and forgetting the existence of their kid, I just wanted the movie to turn into Double Indemnity, with Joanna collecting his life insurance! He just did not seem worth it to me, ever, at any point in the relationship and that made it hard for me to care much about the marriage staying together. I feel like the movie wants me to be sad when they almost separate, but I never do. I just pity Joanna for putting up with someone like that.

IDK, I've seen it twice. Maybe something will click if I ever rewatch it-- it can be hard to track any character development since the story is told out of order. At the very least, the camerawork and editing are interesting.

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[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

I've given up on trying to make myself love movies that just don't work for me. I would say that if you don't love this movie in spite of all the praise heaped upon it, then it's just not your cup of tea. A person can admire a film for being brilliantly made even if they don't love it, but love, even film love, is too personal to be produced on demand.

As far as Joanna putting up with Mark, well, that's an inescapable part of being a dependent wife. As long as she wants to be a stay-at-home wife and mother, her choices are limited to 1) putting up with a spouse's shit or 2) leaving... and leaving one spouse for another always means putting up with someone else's shit. I'd have like Joanna a lot more if she'd wanted to leave Mark to build a life where she could live on her own terms, but that's not what she was doing in the last act, she was leaving to be someone else's dependent wife. And sure, the new guy was more sophisticated and looked like a better deal, but IMHO he was the kind of sophisticated continental guy who'd expect his wife to be civil to his mistresses.

So really, I guess I admire this film but don't love it, like I said above. I enjoyed watching it, but mainly I enjoyed watching Audrey Hepburn when she wasn't trying to be cute, and enjoyed watching Finney be uninhibited, and the groundbreaking non-linear direction. But I didn't love either of the main characters.

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[–] ElizabethJoestar (946) 3 years ago

Oh yeah, I definitely don't expect to ever love it (though it must be said, I have had cases where I initially disliked a film then loved it on a second watch-- Terry Gilliam's Brazil is the best example for me). I guess the love it gets is just so weird to me and I want to understand it. I know people who adore this film, who think the main couple are touching and that their love is powerful. I just see a dependent woman unwilling to let go of a workaholic guy. I don't see any admirable "love" here at all, just an unhealthy marriage with two selfish people.

Anytime a fan of this movie describes it to me, it sounds so much like a movie I would enjoy. But then again, you can't love 'em all. I admire what Donen was trying to do and at the very least, he took a risk in making this movie-- more than can be said for most Hollywood filmmakers in any time period, really.

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[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

It could be that some of the people who love the characters are loving the charismatic actors who play them, and IMHO that's why some actors are worth the money they get paid. A really good actor can make a script seem a lot better than it is! Or maybe they actually like the characters, who are flawed and believable humans, I'm sure there are people who identify strongly with them, even if you or I do not.

FYI a lot of Mark's flaws were fashionable in the 1960s, he was a rebel in his way, he broke the rules (including sexual mores, because this film was made during the "Sexual Revolution"), he didn't give in to the Establishment, he did his own thing, etc. There are fashions in behavior and attitudes that change with time, and I think this is a pretty good example of how that works.

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[–] ElizabethJoestar (946) 3 years ago

Never thought about it like that. Makes sense.

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