I've read several things about Forsyte Saga, and in most of them, they always refer to Soames as a "loathesome character" at the beginning. Granted, his rape of Irene was a horrible act, but he was not *only a monster*. I love the scenes when he's with his parents and sister--they all have such a close relationship. With Irene, his major mistake was not realizing that just because you love someone doesn't mean the person will love you also--and to Irene's credit--she did tell him, when she accepted his proposal, she didn't love him. Had Irene loved, or at the very least, appreciated him, he would have made a wonderful husband for her. I think he's more sympathetic at the beginning than most people give him credit for.
One of the things that bothered me about Irene: she always claimed she tried to make her marriage work with Soames--the viewer never sees any evidence of this--perhaps I missed something, or it's discussed in the novels?? She's always cold to Soames. Another interesting thing about her: when she's riding in the carriage with Uncle Swithin, she watches as Swithin pushes the other carriage over and the people (and all of their belongings) fall into the road--and she seems thrilled. I just don't like her.
My wife & myself are watching the series now, and just remarked on the same thing last night -- she's not trying very hard to be a good wife, is she?
At least in the '67 production, Irene is a pretty blond. In the new production, she struck me as a scarecrow, and neither the missus nor myself could see why men were throwing themselves at her.
The whole carriage scene was odd. Swithin was humorous and likable up to that point, but now strikes me as far from that. Such aggressive behavior for a "gentleman!"
Soames seemed to get well along with Joe's first wife. Whether it was the acting, or the script, but there was a definite attraction there. Soames and Irene just had nothing in common. And I think whether it was the acting or the direction, but Irene was meant to be played with a certain detachment and coolness, so that when she did get excited about the architect or Joe, at the end, the iceness dramatically melted away.
If you watched the extras at the end of the series, it says that Eric Porter would have asked the actress who played Irene to marry him, in real life. Watching the interview with the actors who played Fleur, Soemes and Irene, all sitting relaxed together on the couch, on the last day of shooting was fantastic! Obviously they all got along extremely well, and there was a definite closeness between the actor who plays Soemes and Irene, in real life.
My accountant says, "1 + 1, 40% of the time, equals divorce".
"Soames seemed to get well along with Joe's first wife" I had noticed that also. But I think she (can't remember her name now)would have been too cold to Soames.
As far as chemistry between Nyree Dawn Porter & Eric Porter--it's most definitely there. Near the end of the series when Soames & Irene meet over the possible marriage between Fleur & Jon, Soames asks Irene, "Do you believe in Nemesis?" and she smiles back at him. There's something about that scene that shows those two actors liked each other.
Do you mean the episode where Swithin takes Irene to Robin Hill while Bosinney was still working on it? He and Irene went into the thicket while Swithin fell asleep (and a cuckoo bird was singing! )
It's still fairly early in the series, but I don't remember which episode it is... when Irene and Bosinney get together.
I think it's in "A Man of Property." I never understood June either. Irene takes June's fiance from her, tells June that she (Irene) is not her friend, and yet June forgives Irene and blames Soames all of those years. One would think she would side with Soames since both of them were jilted.
I think June and Soames always had an inimical relationship. June represents the more bohemian, modern, proto feminist type, which is something conservative Soames would dislike.
I wonder if Galsworthy maintained their animosity on order to delineate the schism between the two sides of the Forsyte family...?
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of it from a liberal/conservative standpoint re: June & Soames. But I still don't understand her loyalty to Irene. You may be right about the Galsworthy point of the schism between the Jolyns & the Jameses.
Do you mean Joe's first wife, June's mother, who was dragged to her death by a horse, or his second wife the sensitive and hysterical German governess?
Swithin did strike me as crass. The other Forsytes had their little idiosyncrasies, which made them charming in their own way. Somehow, I don't think any of the other Forsytes would've done something like that--most definitely Aunt Ann would'nt have been pleased, and James & Soames would've worried about a lawsuit, LOL!
you must go to the source material to understand the concept of soames as "loathsome". the original novel was begun in 1902 and completed in 1905, many years before galsworthy took up the characters again. soames was based on the first husband of the authors beloved wife ada, who was the basis for irene. the books never fully reconcile the shift in attitude towards soames. however, donald wilson had the advantage of knowing the life stories of soames, jo, irene, &c. from start to finish, and was able to reconstruct back stories explaining their motivations. remember, the opening 3 hours of the series are almost entirely written by wilson, using mere hints provided by galsworthy.
I always felt sorry for Soames - even when I first saw the series as a young girl I always felt he was misunderstood. He really did love Irene, and I thought she treated him appallingly. I hated too that the family had sympathy for her. I found her rather devious and selfish.
I read the books a zillion years ago in college and don't remember whether there is any implication that the predatory Mr Lomax was trying to put the moves on Irene before even marrying her frivolous stepmother; maybe this was invented by the series writers. Between the two evils Irene probably saw Soames as the lesser one. After all, he was younger, hard-working, wealthy, generous, and socially respected. Even if he didn't understand Beethoven.
However, I think Irene was a little too young to realize what a bad bargain it all was. We aren't shown the immediate three years following the nightmare wedding night, but we are given the impression that Soames doesn't understand marriage or love very well. Irene is his trophy bride in some of the same ways Emily must have been James' (with their 22-year age difference). Soames is very bourgeois in his material pursuits, including Irene's wardrobe. It's almost like he's a child dressing a doll; did he even choose her clothes at the dressmakers'? He has no understanding of people who don't care about material things.
He also agreed to let her go if it didn't work and he goes back on his word when she reminds him. That makes his complaint about her lack of effort in the marriage less credible to me.
The Fabio Principle: Puffy shirts look best on men who look even better without them.
Soames is very bourgeois in his material pursuits, including Irene's wardrobe. It's almost like he's a child dressing a doll; did he even choose her clothes at the dressmakers'?
What a martinet! I couldn't believe the way he ordered her around: telling her she had to stay downstairs with him, telling her what to wear, which jewelry, etc. Then building the house so she wouldn't be able to spend so much time with June. He acted more like an over-bearing father than a husband. (Certainly not like a lover!)
He has no understanding of people who don't care about material things.
Exactly! The narration describing what Soames thinks of Bossiney, especially the way he dresses, is so shallow and cold. But more than that, it suggests a person who is very insecure about everything. He wouldn't dream of dressing incorrectly or doing anything incorrectly, lest he appear inferior for doing so. Such insecurity is a defining a characteristic of "new money"; always afraid they'll be knocked off the podium for their minor transgressions.
Do you know what would be the perfect drinking game for the 1967 Forsyte Saga series? Take a drink every time you hear a Forsyte say the word property!
The whole clan, save for Jolyon (and to some extent Old Jolyon), are fixated on material goods that increase in value: Winnifred's pearls, the China that James and Old Jolyon give as wedding gifts, Swithin's sculpture, Soames' paintings, real estate (except for St. John's Wood!), etc. An item is unworthy unless it will increase in value with age.
And lol @ the dinner discussion about which breed of mutton is best!
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<< One of the things that bothered me about Irene: she always claimed she tried to make her marriage work with Soames--the viewer never sees any evidence of this--perhaps I missed something, or it's discussed in the novels?? She's always cold to Soames...I just don't like her. >>
She does seem excessively rude to her husband in the first 4 or so episodes...after she said she would try to be a loving wife in every way. I was rather impatient with her. Then later she says she knew from their wedding night that they were ill-matched, yet the show doesn't specifically detail WHY.
Also, part of it may be the problem most movies and TV shows run into with unsympathetic characters like Soames. Actors are usually better looking than most ordinary people, and the young Soames is probably more physically attractive than he needs to be. Looking at him, you think, "Well, he's kind of cute. What's the problem??"
I see Irene as rather like Elena in Uncle Vanya. She's a physically beautiful woman that men find attractive, but doesn't have great depth.
she says she knew from their wedding night that they were ill-matched, yet the show doesn't specifically detail WHY.
"Well, he's kind of cute. What's the problem??"
She's a physically beautiful woman that men find attractive, but doesn't have great depth.
I think the show of the end of their wedding night does make it quite clear. Without showing the way Soams making love to her, and the very first time of course (it's not porno movie or modern show-me-all-at-once. It is 60's TV series after all!).
I have no doubt Soams had very little concern what her feelings were. His looks after making love to Irene shows he is satisfied in the very moment she's desperate and unhappy. It was always kind of raping for sure on his side.
Victorian people were raised to think a lady unable, and mustn't feel even slight sexual pleasure - otherwise she's rather like a whore in the depth of her soul.
To suffer and to be silent about it is what sex life meant for married women of the era. No wonder nearly all Forsyte women can't feel for Irene; except June, who's unable to have married life with a man without love, too - mind you she's never married after she lost Bosinney's love. Victorians ask the same question many of modern women-readers repeat now - why she is unhappy? She decided upon marrying him, and must continue no matter what it seems always happening in their bedroom. I'm greatly surprised modern readers can't understand that Irene hardly knew what she'd get. Still she had kind is guessing though, it seems, and that's because she insisted on getting Soames's word that if the marriage won't work she'd get her freedom back.
Poor soul she was sure that making it "work" meant endeavour from Soames part too. She wasn't dreaming her happiness in marriage would imply getting jewelry enough after Soames got his night "pleasure" enough.
Surely Galsworthy shows his disagreement with cruelty in marriage women receiving then through Irene's rebellion. Such calm on surface but passionate inside women like Irene just unable to keep evil hidden in family.
He knew that very well. It's based on his wife misfortunes and sufferings in her first marriage. She was just unable to bear sexual live with this man. Such thing might be even kind of allergic BTW. How come you to know about it without having even one sexual contact with your husband-to-be before marriage, I ask you? Holding hands and bruising lips hardly a solution. But to get a divorce, and the right to marry after if you'd be able to get it after all - all that wasn't at all such a simple thing as it is now.
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