MovieChat Forums > The Forsyte Saga (1969) Discussion > Soemes should have been born old.

Soemes should have been born old.

posted 18 years ago by sherlock-37
10 replies | jump to latest

Soemes seemed to have a much better time as an older man during his free time off work. No doubt he enjoyed his profession, but his personal time seemed like hell, as a younger man. He seemed to torture himself, and it seemed to him, be the fault of other people, not himself. I would say that although on the surface it looks like he lived an ordered life, he really brought disorder into the world everywhere he went, until he become much older, where the situtation reversed. He started to bring order to the disorder around him. Very dramatic, and this makes Soames probably the most interesting character. The scenes where he's not in, especially with Jo and Irene are more relaxed, but when Soames comes in the scene instantly becomes tense. Makes for great drama.

My accountant says, "1 + 1, 40% of the time, equals divorce".

[–] catalina_caesar 18 years ago

How do you mean that Soames "brought disorder into the world everywhere he went"??? What are some examples? From my view, I think it was Irene who (often unwittingly) brought disorder: her stepmother's beau, her marriage to Soames, her affair with Bosinney (which destroyed June's engagement), Old Jolyon's affection (Indian Summer of a Forsyte) for her, then her marriage to Young Jolyon (which was hard on June at first and scandalized the other Forsytes), and then her relationship with her son which made his relationship with Fleur star crossed.

[–] Harold_Robbins 18 years ago

Soames is a perfect example of a character who starts out basically unsympathetic and unlikeable, yet we end up shedding a tear or two when he departs this world - obviously in the years between the first Forsyte novel and the subsequent ones Galsworthy began to soften towards Soames, and if we're not passionately in love with him by SWAN SONG, we've at least come to understand him better and to like him. He's really only unreasonable where Irene is concerned, I think.

"I don't use a pen: I write with a goose quill dipped in venom!"---W. Lydecker

[–] tiderolls 18 years ago

"He's really only unreasonable where Irene is concerned, I think."

With the exception of the rape, he's not unreasonable even with Irene, imo. When Bosinney was building Soames and Irene's house, for example, Soames was concerned that Irene would be warm, and he wanted her to think well of him. If she had shown him some affection, there's no doubt that he would've been a wonderful husband. As a young man, he *was* a good son, very respectful and loving to his parents and a good brother who took care of Winnifred. Even George Forsyte had to admit in later years that Soames was always trustworthy.

[–] catalina_caesar 18 years ago

I completely agree,anehteach! There is really nothing wrong with Soames in his youth except he's a bit "chilly." When he ages, he mellows and becomes rather endearing. I always found his distress and bewilderment about the Roaring Twenties generation rather amusing.

Remember when he buys balloons from that poor man who lost his job (and his wife was a model?) for no other reason than to be kind to him in a curmudgeonly way. He tells him he has no need for the balloons, then buys two, overpays him and gruffly tells him not to expect it from him again! I thought it was funny!

[–] tiderolls 18 years ago

And later on, he just out and out gives the guy some money--very generous indeed for our "tight" Soames, LOL. I love the way Old Soames became more and more like his father, James. As you mentioned his bewilderment with the '20s, he kept saying things like his father. Also, when Fleur was about to have her baby, Soames's reactions were just like James's when Winnifred had hers.

Eric Porter did a fantastic job of capturing an old man's characteristics, even to the point of moving like someone who is older.

[–] catalina_caesar 18 years ago

Yes, showing Soames' character developing (and becoming more like his father!) as he ages is one of the wonderful things about this version of TFS, and is severely lacking in the more recent version. There, they have Soames remains the same (he hardly ages either) and he just simpers after his spoiled daughter. No real character development there, and I think the producer was just interested in villifying Soames while making Irene out to be some kind of proto feminist heroine.

[–] echubb25 12 years ago

Well, before the marriage Irene makes him promise that he will let her leave him if she finds she can't after all be happy in the marriage. And he breaks that promise. Also, the rape was a very big deal to Irene! Soames by that time knows she doesn't love him--is in fact repulsed by him--and loves another man. And he rapes her. Actually, I think the family feud between old Jolyon and James that is carried on and intensified by Jo and Soames is getting a bit unreasonable in the younger generation. Jolyon/James and Jo/Soames just don't like each other on an unreasonable, emotional, gut level.

[–] ShannonTriumphant 12 years ago

What an excellent point, sherlock-37! I agree completely and am glad to see that you aren't part of the "Irene-hating" crowd!

I could write (and am doing so) an entire book on the disorder, devastation and misery that Soames brought into the lives of those around him! Only a few lucky people were "immune": his sister Winifred, his parents, his mother-in-law! He even shocks the family doctor with this weird "values" when his daughter is born.

Here's a short list:

Irene: Stalks her (helped by her hag stepmother), refuses to take "no" for an answer, drives other suitors away, promises she can leave if the marriage doesn't work. Breaks the promise, hounds her sexually, controls every aspect of her life, including her love of music, rapes her, drivers her lover nuts, resulting in his death, has her followed after she runs off, hounds her some more, won't even back off 20 years later when his daughter, Fleur, wants to marry Irene's son Jon, resulting in Jon's father's (Young Jolyon) death of a heart attack.

Young Jolyon: see above

Philip Bosinney: Lures him in to befriend Irene while he designs their house, harangues him over the price, pretends not to notice his affair with Irene and then rapes her, drives him nuts over it, sues him over a few hundred pounds, causes his death.

Old Jolyon: Makes sarcastic comments about Jolyon's exiled son, Young Jolyon and his granddaughter, June. Looks down his nose at the fact that June is jilted by Bosinney. Tries to buy a house Jolyon wants, just to spite him (though he fails--yay!).

June: Openly dislikes her, makes fun of her, judges her taste in art and lifestyle. Calls her names and gossips about her sad love life.

Aunt Juley: At a dinner, mocks her favorite minister, makes fun of his sermon and calls him a "humbug", reducing her to tears.

Annette (the girl he pursues 12 yrs. after Irene leaves): Hangs around, drives away other suitors (sound familiar?), conspires with her mother to secure the daughter a wife, marries her without love, when she's having their child and doctor says operate or she might die, Soames refuses, to save the child, treats her like a live-in prostitute, bosses her around, ignores her, mocks her nationality (French), spoils their daughter and takes her love from Annette, drives away her lover.

Fleur (his daughter) - loves her but smothers her, controls her life, refuses to tell her why their family doesn't get along with Irene and Jolyon's after she meets their son, Jon, makes up a lame story that they wounded him without cause, allows her to marry a man she doesn't love after Jon rejects her at his parents' wish.

Is that enough???

Irene was just young (18), desperate and ignorant. Soames was controlling, selfish and even violent. As June puts at at Fleur's tragic wedding: "That man's fatal!"

She deserves her revenge, and we deserve to die.

[–] gorye 12 years ago

How I'm glad to know I'm not the only one on Irene's side.

I've read the Saga when I was about 20 and for ages never discussed it with anyone. Just... don't know why. Well, no Web boards existed then, I'd presume, LOL!

And suddenly after quite a while I discovered that most of the readers-watchers, women actually, just hate Irene and love Soams! I've got their reasons OK by now, and still... I can't take that in.
It's the permanent state of a shock for me.

[–] ShannonTriumphant 12 years ago

Hi gorye! It's SO nice to meet a supporter of Irene! You're right; there are a shocking number of people, including (as you said) women, who blame Irene for everything, calling her horrible names. Did you find this true before the 2002 adaptation came out? I think that painted Irene in a terrible, negative light that Galsworthy never intended. After all Irene was modeled after his own wife, who had been married to his Soames-like cousin, and his affair with her. Their love story is really Galworthy's and Ada's (there's at least one book out about them, which I haven't read: For Some We Loved.

I, too, was about 20 when I first read it and it just bowled me over. Sadly, as you said, there was nobody with whom to discuss it, except my mom (!), who had recommended it to me, though she remembered little of it (had read it in college). None of my friends, even the literary ones, had read it; it was considered "old hat" back then. How silly! I'd love to discuss it further. If you know of any boards, can you let me know? Or, if you'd like to message me, I'd be glad to have a private talk about one of my favorite novels!

Here's one site with more of G's work on it:

http://www.online-literature.com/john-galsworthy/

It's a nice thing to think about: G's love affair with Ada, which resulted in marriage (just like Jolyon and Irene), but no kids--just dogs! (I think). Nice to know that they got past all the tragedy and lived happily...mostly (I think G. had an affair! *sigh*...just like Jolyon, but who would cheat on "Irene").??!

She deserves her revenge, and we deserve to die.