My favorite line, if I had to choose would be:
More: [After being threatened by Cromwell with torture] You threaten like a dockside bully.
Cromwell: How should I threaten?
More: Like a minister of state, with justice.
Cromwell: Oh, 'justice' is what you're threatened with!
More: Then I'm not threatened...
*Might as well we're discussing the film I have to questions that puzzle me:
1.) Who and what was the importance of that recurring well-dressed character who's well-dressed, first having presented More with a case that which he was not given time to explain, and later, before the inquiry, he was at a party in Richmond and saw More being taken through the halls- I know that the 'Common Man' was Matthew, the Jailer, the Boatman, the Executioner, etc., but could he be also? Again, who was he? Zinneman bothered to display him in two curious moments.
2.) "I shall miss you Matthew"; I am still confused about that line, no matter how many times I watch the movie or read the play. Can anyone help me on that?
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TudorLady
14 years ago
I'm not sure it was the same man. The first man was included to show that More treated all cases alike and could not be bribed, (either with baked apples or antyhing else.) It was implied that the well-dressed man wanting to 'illuminate' his awkward case was going to offer a bribe.
As for the man at the party, I think he was just there to show that if you went along with the king's wishes you would be included in all the entertainments at court. More walking past on his way to be interrogated showed the contrast of what happened if you went against Henry.
When More says "I shall miss you Matthew" I think he is letting his steward know that he is fully aware that he (Matthew) has been questioned by Cromwell in order to try and find out More's opinions, but he does not blame Matthew for this.
These are just my conclusions, they may not be correct :)
The King's Good Servant but God's first
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deeveed
14 years ago
As for the man at the party, I think he was just there to show that if you went along with the king's wishes you would be included in all the entertainments at court. More walking past on his way to be interrogated showed the contrast of what happened if you went against Henry.
I'm always intrigued with More going into the King's service and becoming Lord Chancellor. He knew that with the title came great responsibilities. I'll always wonder whether More thought he could "handle" Henry when it came to disagreements and was willing to deal with the resulting prsssure. My question is did More think that one day Henry would ask for his head??
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TudorLady
14 years ago
More once made the comment, "If my head could win him a castle, it would not fail to go." However I do think he believed that so long as Henry was properly advised he would not defy the church. Sadly he was wrong.
The King's Good Servant but God's first
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hachmom-1
14 years ago
"Who and what was the importance of that recurring well-dressed character who's well-dressed, first having presented More with a case that which he was not given time to explain, and later, before the inquiry, he was at a party in Richmond and saw More being taken through the halls- I know that the 'Common Man' was Matthew, the Jailer, the Boatman, the Executioner, etc., but could he be also? Again, who was he? Zinneman bothered to display him in two curious moments."
I think he represents the rise and fall of More's position in society...the man who was seeking his assistance at the beginning of the film looking upon him with pity near the end. Also showing that the Tudor world goes on without More, and the average person is not affected at all by this little tiff betw King and courtier.
"I shall miss you Matthew"; I am still confused about that line, no matter how many times I watch the movie or read the play. Can anyone help me on that?"
I see a double meaning...1) More will miss Matthew personally. More likes him, is amused by his little attempted deceptions and is sorry to see him go. 2)He will miss what Matthew represents, the beautiful world that More has built around himself that he will now watch crumble.
It is not our abilities that show who we truly are...it is our choices
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cwente2
14 years ago
"I shall miss you Matthew." (twice)
The first time More says it, Matthew doesn't believe he means it and blows the sentiment off. Matthew knows More knows he's been a bit of an informant.
The second time, More says it "in dead earnest". He DOES mean it -- despite Matthew's occasional disloyalty. Makes Matthew feel really bad ("Now isn't that them all over"; "Sorry - bad luck"; "I wish rainwater was beer"; etc.) in contrast to More -- who's completely honest and capable of showing a discerning and deeper feeling DESPITE what's been done to him. More's character's a step above the more superficial Matthew (who is US -- remember?). A small illustration why there are fewer saints than there are opportunists.
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deeveed
13 years ago
A small illustration why there are fewer saints than there are opportunists.
Very good. After all the years studying him, More's character continues to fascinate me so much. He truly was made I think of "different stuff" from all of us. I think he had to be born with "saintliness" already existing in him.
But I'd like to say that at times in Scofield's portrayal of More there is an element of subtle "arrogance" when dealing with those who he serves. I'm sure that that "arrogance" was what enabled him to stand up to the pressures being made upon him. It anchored the righteousness of his stand which emanated from his innermost being.
And also there's the other side where he certainly doesn't want "trouble" and would gladly want to get free of Henry's verbal encumbrances. There's the scene where Henry comes to Chelsea to put the arm on More. After a tirade, Henry does says to More that don't worry he'll keep More "out of it". From "knowing" More, I can almost feel how he would've handled that. Surely he'd be thinking whew looks like I'll get out of that one! But we know it was not to be. It was inevitable. With a man of such spiritual constitution, he couldn't get off the road to "saintliness".
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TudorLady
13 years ago
I have read a lot of criticism, some of it pretty vehement, about Thomas More. I find myself wondering if some of it comes from the feeling that he is 'too good to be true', or possibly from the knowledge that not many of us have his saintly qualities. Of course, it's a fact, not many of us do and while some of us choose to admire him, there will always be those who will attempt to portray him as less than he was. I find myself defending him often (not that he needs me to!)
The King's Good Servant but God's first
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deeveed
13 years ago
I have read a lot of criticism, some of it pretty vehement, about Thomas More.
hmmm...was it Jasper Ridley's book????? I picked it up recently but haven't read it yet. Ridley apparently argues that Wolsey was just as good a man as More and perhaps better.
I find myself wondering if some of it comes from the feeling that he is 'too good to be true', or possibly from the knowledge that not many of us have his saintly qualities.
Perhaps but on the other hand (and I get this from Scofield's interpretation of his character), it appears that More consciously wanted to avoid trouble. He appeared to not want to get into the mess of Henry's love/succession life. I thought that was an indication that he was like all of us where we want to put aside conflict. The interesting thing with More I thought was that when his decisions would either lead to life or death he knew his path and never deviated. And that's where perhaps the differences between him and us lie. many are called and few are chosen.
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TudorLady
13 years ago
Actually I meant on this board (and another one) More has been called all sorts of things and his motives examined minutely, giving rise to some very questionable theories!
However I did find a book on ebay called, 'Thomas More, the Search for the Inner Man' by Louis L Martz. When it arrived I discovered it had been written as a response to 'writings that have questioned More's integrity and motivation and have challenged the long-held view of him as a humane, wise and heroic "man for all seasons."' The author mentioned a biography by Richard Marius in particular. He also mentions G R Elton.
He argues that 'there is no foundation for reviving the ancient charge that More was a bloody persecutor of heretics and he questions the view that he suffered from an "inner fury" resulting from sexual repression and a frustrated desire to be a monk.'
Having read the defence, I felt I should read the charges, so I bought Marius's book. I have only just started it and haven't come across anything controversial yet but I have a feeling I will!
The King's Good Servant but God's first
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pebbles989
13 years ago
Sorry but I was just wondering if you have ever read In the Shadow of a Saint by Ruth Norrington, which is about Alice, as no one else I've spoken to seems to have heard of it. I think its romanticised in parts (and a bit inaccurate), but its a very beautiful book and I think more closer to the truth of More and Alice's relationship, than the current fashionable view.
(Even my flatmate loved it and she hadn't heard of More until I moved in)
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pebbles989
13 years ago
Sorry never posted here before, but having recently read Jasper Ridley's book, I can just say thats its terrible. He basically twists stories involving More, to make him the seem to be the devil, (in the conclusion, he says More would have supported the Final Solution). He seems to spend every chapter constantly going on about how much More hated his family (except Meg) and how he was obsessed by sex. There is a 'funny' bit though, where Ridley once again says More hated his much older wife, but then he gets Alice's age wrong, making her younger than her husband.
(Sorry if I ruined you reading :))
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TudorLady
13 years ago
Don't apologise, welcome to the board! I haven't heard of In the Shadow of a Saint. I'm always interested (my family say obsessed!) by anything new about More. (Though I think I'll give the Ridley book a miss!)
The King's Good Servant but God's first
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pebbles989
13 years ago
Thanks :) My family say the same about me too-my mum reckons I have a poster of More on my wall, not to mention my friend with whom I had a nasty argument with after she read a certain novel.
I think you'd enjoy In the Shadow of a Saint. Its a really great book and it has a lovely feel to it, plus there was things in there that I had never read before, (such as Erasmus' description of Alice's daughter).Marius book is good too, but I disagree with the theme of sex and redemption.
I think everyone should give Ridley's book a miss-it was awful and found it hard to believe a historian could write some of those the things.
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deeveed
13 years ago
(Sorry if I ruined you reading :)
heh heh you know I really didn't get a chance to start it! But you know I'm intrigued to see how Ridley sets up his arguments about More. He could be one of those exasperating contra-indicating curmudgeons, eh?
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pebbles989
13 years ago
:) Well let me know what you think. Have you got the British version or the American-I had the American and the even the cover made More (and Wolsey) look like they should be on Crimewatch!
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deeveed
13 years ago
I'll check.
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TudorLady
13 years ago
"even the cover made More (and Wolsey) look like they should be on Crimewatch!"
Ha ha love it! "Have you seen these men"?
The King's Good Servant but God's first
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Jason_Radley
12 years ago
That certainly goes for Holbein's portrait of More:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Hans_Holbein%2C_the _Younger_-_Sir_Thomas_More_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
The first case of designer stubble in Western art?
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deeveed
12 years ago
hmmm..just wondering. I'm curious as to what's in that piece of paper in his hand.
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Jason_Radley
12 years ago
Shopping list, perhaps.
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kathy_in_wlsv
12 years ago
"When the last law is down and the devil turns round on you, where would you hide the Roper the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast, mans law not God's, and if you cut them down, and your just the man to do it do you really think you would stand upright in the winds that would blow then. Yes I give the devil benefit of the law for mine own safety's sake."
And
"will you join me (in hell) for fellowship."
AMFAS is a film which is one of my all time favorites, probably # 2 after The Lion in Winter. both have incredible, intelligent dialog.
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