I just watched this movie and I'm wandering why Thomas did this? Was it worth to die for this matter of marriage?
I didn't understand him. The king wanted to remarry . So what? He didn't hurt anybody. He wanted to divorce his wife and get marry again.
I think that disapproval lead the king to seek for being the head of the church and be a dictator . If they didn't disagree at first, this kind of thing would never happen.
What do you think?
First, allow me to explain some bits about Christian theology.
There is no such thing as Divorce. It is a legal fiction. Because, when you get married, you're being joined in union by God Himself. And what God has put together let no man put asunder. While God allowed divorce in the Old Testament, Christ explained that the Father did so for the hardness of men's hearts, allowing a man to give a certificate of divorce to his wife if she was found to be unfaithful (meaning she was cheating on him). But God the Father does not condone divorce. Because Christ also said that if you divorce your wife, and if she remarries, you have caused her to commit adultery (and same with yourself if you remarry); meaning that if you and your spouse should separate, if you value your immortal souls you will not have sex with anyone else because, "What God has put together let no man put asunder."
What Henry VIII was after was an Annulment. An Annulment is merely a statement by the Church that says that a marriage never, in fact, took place. This is done for a number of reasons, such as one person in the marriage was too young, or was already married to someone else, or was pregnant with another man's child and did not tell the prospective husband. Henry lawfully wedded his brother's widow, Catherine of Aragon, and consummated the marriage. He tried to argue that the marriage was invalid because his brother and Catherine had already consummated their marriage, and thus he was committing an act of adultery with Catherine. But that's not how it works. Because marriage is until death do you part, and his brother died. He married the widow. That was perfectly lawful under God's law. So he couldn't get an annulment, because the Church cannot do anything against God's Law.
A lot of people have a lot of bad ideas about the Church. For instance, the Church cannot ordain women as priests, but people think they can. They can't, because that's against the traditions of dogma set forth by Christ Himself. The Church's job is to help get souls into Heaven. And to do so it must be as true to Christ and His Teachings as possible. While the Catholic Church is the only Church founded by Christ Himself, it is comprised of fallible human beings who make mistakes, often at peril of their own souls.
If St. Thomas More were to acknowledge the marriage, because he's dealing with spiritual lunatics (Henry, for one, and Cranmer another), he would be putting his own immortal soul in jeopardy. It's the same sin as St. Peter committed against Christ at the Crucifixion by denying three times that he had even known him. Martyrs are testaments to God and a reality beyond death.
The role of the Church in Christendom, in monarchy, is important. What Henry was really seeking was a Church that would bless whatever he deigned to do, which is what every government of any kind wants from religion. If the King were to do anything against God's Law (in violation of his coronation oath), he could be excommunicated, and that is huge. That means his subjects are no longer required to obey him in accordance to the 4th Commandment - Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother. So, Henry retaliates and makes war on the one true Church by starting his own and seizing Church property. And he has the church he wants that will bless whatever he wants.
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Otter (24464)
8 years ago
Very thorough and insightful response.
The only thing you left out was the rise of Protestantism, and how Henry's personal desires drove an entire nation from the Catholic church and into Protestantism... or rather, changed the government's official stance. Not every citizen of England believed in the change, and yes, the change brought on generations of conflict between English Catholics and Protestants and accusations of heresy on both sides and executions and burnings.
While I am no fan of the Catholic church, I have to say that Henry's disregard of the price of change would have made me oppose him too. All he cared about was his own needs, he didn't give a rat's ass about what the effects of the divorce and everything that came with it would have on his subjects.
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DiggoryVenn (89)
8 years ago
Yes, it is a thorough and insightful response, but you summed it up more succinctly: he didn't give a rat's ass about anything or anyone.
"Wolf Hall" is on again tonight on PBS, 10 p.m.
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Catbookss (13664)
8 years ago
I have to wonder if it was more complex than Henry's personal desires borne of his infamous infatuation with Anne Boleyn, and an extreme desire to have a (male) heir to his throne. That's the legend anyway.
As I understand it Henry was universally liked and admired, with probably the exception of Francis, king of France. He was known as a benevolent king, especially amongst his subjects.
For some reason, which I don't think is still fully understood, his personality radically changed. He became hard and cold and basically a petty and violent tyrant, for which he's now known.
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Otter (24464)
8 years ago
if Henry became hard and cold in office, IMHO that was power corrupting. By all accounts he was a charming, charismatic, and sexy young man, but decades of dealing with the politics of the time would crush the fun out of anyone's spirit.
As for his desire for a son, IHMO it was more of a motive to break with the church than his lust for Anne Boleyn, and IMHO his desire for a son was not entirely selfish. He was ONE generation removed from the horrible War of the Roses, a neverending civil war where kings were constantly being deposed and the royal relatives slaughtered each other with gusto, Henry's father had been the last man standing at the end and there weren't a lot of royal relatives left. Henry was justifiably afraid that if he died without a universally accepted heir then his funeral would be followed by all his closest relatives raising their armies and starting the whole horrible business over again; he may have genuinely believed that England needed a male heir more than it needed the Catholic church.
Personally I think that was the wrong way to deal with the dangerous issue of succession. He could have concentrated on educating his daughter and building support for her succession, or finding her the husband she desperately wanted. If she'd been able to marry when she was young and healthy she might have given him a grandson.
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