MovieChat Forums > The Blue Max (1966) Discussion > Inaccurate projection of WWI air combat

Inaccurate projection of WWI air combat


In reality, as the autobiographies and biographies of many WWI fighter pilots make clear, Bruno Stachel's attitude was the normal and usual one where air combat was concerned. Pilots openly and aggressively fought for recognition of kills; such luminaries as Mick Mannock and Manfred von Richtofen would think nothing of machine gunning aircraft already going down in flames. Nothing counted except results.
I'd direct you to a remarkable book, "Who Killed the Red Baron?" by PJ Carisella, for details.
One serious error - it was considered in BAD TASTE for a combat victor to attend his victim's funeral. Stachel would never have been expected to attend it.
Besides, if any pilot interested in staying alive to shoot down more enemy planes had been in Stachel's position, he too would have shot down the reconnaissance fighter when the observer began to move for his gun.
And any real account of WWI combat mentions how most planes exploded in mid air or went down in spiralling masses of flames - to be expected since they lacked self-sealing fuel tanks. There were few tidy, shallow dives trailing thin tidy threads of smoke like virtually all the aircraft shot down in this film. Refresh my memory - was there a single true "flamer"? I don't recall one.

reply

1. The film was not completely clear on whether the observer in the two-seater actually moved for his gun. That was only Stachel's version of the story. I remember Heidermann then remarked that the observer must be either very brave or very stupid, since he was already blind. I think the intended interpretation is that Stachel had lied. What really happened was that Stachel forced the enemy pilot to fly the plane back to the German airfield and then deliberately shot it down. That made sense since Stachel was upset because his earlier kill was not "confirmed". Willi saw what happened but refused to tell on Stachel despite Heidermann's insistence, to protect the "honor" of German airmen.

2. My own impression is that WWI planes seldom exploded in mid air. For example, I have a book on Richthofen that has a table showing all his 80 victories, their locations, the identities of his victims, and what happened to the enemy planes that went down (as described by Richthofen in his reports). There was not one case in which he reported the enemy plane exploding in mid-air. It was far more often that planes went down in flames. It was often said that fire was the airmen's greatest fear.

reply

All WW 1 pilots brought a pistol. It was their most important item. Why? Because shooting one's self is better than burning to death.

reply

I "know" that pilots started shooting at enemy planes with pistols. Early on, pilots would typically wave or salute each other, "all chivalry". So that doesn't really "jibe" with your "suicide bullet". The pistols would have originally been carried because of the possibility of a malfunction, causing the pilot to make an emergency landing. Pilots still carry pistols for that reason.

reply

I've just watched this, and I thought it was clear that the observer was lifting the gun and looking toward Bruno's plane. Even if he were blinded, he could have aimed toward the sound. Bruno's reaction also indicated genuine concern that he was about to be shot.

reply

If the observer was blind, he could not have shot towards the sound of Stachel's plane, since that would have been drowned by the noise from the engine of his own plane.

reply

It does not matter if the Obs aircraft or it's aircrew was armed. Even if they were done with their mission and going home, they MAY have had intelligence to deliver to their base. Even if they didn't, they would go back the next day and get MORE intelligence.

Shoot them down when and where you find them.

"They sucked his brains out!"

reply

What really happened was that Stachel forced the enemy pilot to fly the plane back to the German airfield and then deliberately shot it down.

No, the observer clearly went for the gun. Stachel's reaction in the air was clearly concern, he was trying to force the plane down. His actions on the ground were a reaction to the others accusing him of deliberatly shooting down the plane.

reply

One could also suggest that - accurate or not - that there were no burning wrecks falling from the sky due to the limited special effects of the time and or the budget of the film.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

i think the main objective of WW1 pilots was to try to shoot the pilot himself rather than the aircraft.

reply

Correct. Richthofen often lectured his Staffel's pilots thus; "Never shoot holes in a machine. Aim for the man and don't miss him. If you're fighting a two-seater, get the observer first. Unless you've silenced the machine gun, don't bother about the pilot."

When Richthofen was killed after being shot by Australian Lewis gunner Robert Buie, Irish ace Mick Mannock had this to say: "I hope he burned all the way down."

All the hokum about the jousting and honour of World War One air combat is just that - hokum.

Take me, Great Cthulhu! Take me!

reply

It's true that Von Richthofen had amassed an amazing 80 aerial victories at the time of his death. However, you're mistaken by your assertion that he was killed by Australian gunner Robert Buie. It was almost certainly during the final stage in his pursuit of the Canadian pilot (Wilfred May) that Richthofen was hit by a single .303 bullet, which caused such severe damage to his heart and lungs that it must have produced a very speedy death. In the last seconds of his life, he managed to make a hasty but controlled landing in a field on a hill near the Bray-Corbie road, just north of the village of Vaux-sur-Somme, in a sector controlled by the Australian Imperial Force (AIF). One witness, Gunner George Ridgway, stated that when he and other Australian soldiers reached the aircraft, Richthofen was still alive but died moments later. Another eye witness, Sgt Ted Smout of the Australian Medical Corps, reported that Richthofen's last word was "kaputt".

reply

I strongly suggest you visit this website and resolve your doubts once and for all:

http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/richt.htm

Take me, Great Cthulhu! Take me!

reply

To be fair to everyone, the website certainly does not resolve doubts "once for all". (If you read carefully, even the author was not completely certain about his conclusions). All the possibilities mentioned there had actually been considered and debated soon after Richthofen's death. Today, people who watch the History Channel a little too often tend to believe that by piecing together information and conducting analysis, one can be completely certain about what happened decades if not centuries ago. In truth, the so-called evidence was from various eyewitnesses (who very often do not have witnesses themselves) who told their stories years after the event. In the case of Richthofen's death, everything hinges on the recollections of those who had fired at the triplane and, more importantly, the observations of those few who claimed to have examined Richtofen's body. If someone lied, or his recollection was wrong, or if his observations were mistaken, then all the so called "analysis" falls to the ground.

It is a bit funny that you recommended an article that suggested that Popkin's machine gun fired the fatal shot (the most common assertion), while in your earlier post, you seemed to believe that Buie was the one responsible.

reply

I have to say I was very disappointed with the dogfighting in this movie. Perhaps I came to it with too high expectations. The live action areal stunts are very good and it's always a thrill to see WWI era bi-planes in flight, but the close ups are very poor - you can totally tell that it's blue screen and the action does not often match the real footage of the planes as it is edited back in.

Not to mention, if you are an aviation buff, there are just a number of goofs in this movie that I found very distracting (the handle that they had to reach up and pull to fire the guns(!); the distance at which the dog fights took place; the fact that the Fokker DVII was used and referred to as an out of date plane; the fact that these single seat Pfalz' were dropping bombs from their wings...

I will have to go back and watch it again and maybe it will grow on me, but right now I am thinking this movie is highly over rated.

reply

I don't recall anyone in the film saying that the Fokker D.VII was obsolete. In fact, I don't think that plane type was ever mentioned in the film at all. In this film, you may just treat it as one of the anonymous biplanes. Of course, the Fokker D.VII did not appear until around the middle of 1918.

It is true that German single-seaters (scouts) did not carry bombs in the First World War. But the British S.E. 5a scouts did sometimes carry bombs in ground attack operations. So that part about German scouts bombing British troops - while inaccurate - did not strain credulity too much.

If you are very particular about the accuracy of plane types, then I am sure you won't like other WWI air fighting films like Flyboys and Von Richthofen and Brown. In Flyboys, you see the Germans flying Fokker Dr.I triplanes in 1916 and all of them were red! In Von Richthofen and Brown, you see Richthofen shooting down Lanoe Hawker while the latter was flying an S.E. 5a. In fact, Hawker should have been shown flying an Airco D.H.2, which was of the "pusher" type and had the very distinctive look of having the propeller located behind the pilot.

reply

The main objective of aerial combat in WW1 was to deny the enemy the ability to view activity behind your lines.
Aerial reconnaisance was the primary reason for the stalemate of trench warfare. German fighters were to prevent any Allied planes from coming over and taking photos. These photos would reveal build ups of troops and supplies for an attack and consequently the other side would have a matching build-up to meet the attack. This resulted in deadlock and failed attacks with thousands of casualties.
Rictofen's kills had a high percentage of two-seaters because that was their primary job.
Additionally "flamers" were not really that common. A lot of reports just say the plane being fired on broke up or collapsed. Those biplanes were so tightly stressed and braced that if a bullet cut a wire or splintered a strut the whole thing would fold up and fall from the sky.

reply

I think you may be taking things a bit too far saying that aerial reconnaisance was the primary reason for the stalemate situation on the Western front. In every account of the war I have read the primary reason is said to be the quicker development of defensive weapons and tactics - machine guns, trenches, barbed wire - than that of the offensive. It was simply easier to sit back in your defensive position than it was to attack and overrun it. It was not until the deployment of the first tanks on the front that breaking through an enemy line without horrifying losses became realistic.
It's definitely true that airplanes played a part in acquiring intelligence but I think one can safely say they did not decide the outcome.

reply

Exactly, you can't destroy the planes and risk the lives of the pilots. The high altitude scenes had only the smoke trails, there were the crashes but those probably were done pilot-less.


If everyone's thinking the same way, someone isn't thinking. Gen. Patton

reply

This movie has some faults but for WWI aviation fans, it's one of the best. The aerial shots are superb.
Not all airmen carried revolvers. This rumor probably started because 'Mick' Mannock supposedly carried one just in case his plane caught on fire. He had an obsessive fear of burning up. When he was shot down on July 26 1918 his plane was on fire and crashed but Mannock's body was found nearby but no gunshot wound was found. Some suggest he may have jumped and tried to survive.
The action in this movie is considerably less exciting when it's not focused on the air combat, but still a great movie.
And not all German piots were aristocrats. In the beginning of the war both British and German pilots were primarily upper classes because flying was still somewhat of a gentleman's sport, and men of wealth could afford flying lessons. The feeling of chivalry that was common in the beginning soon ended as losses mounted and new pilots were needed, from any background. There were several high scoring German aces with commonfolk backgrounds..Fritz Rumey, Paul Baumer, Bruno Loerzer, and several British too.

reply

While it's certainly true that there were pilots from less noble backgrounds than the likes of von Richthofen, the German Air Service operated pretty much like a hunting club (hunting was the "sport" of the nobility in Germany).

reply

And once they were in, at least during WW2, fighter pilots were usually judged solely by their performance in the air. For ex: In the Western Front, one fighter pilot commanded a fighter gruppe for the last two years of WW2; he was well thought of & another officer from the German upper class said the man in question had great 'peasant/hunter cunning' in the air.








Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

reply

Comparing them to WWII is not actually very helpful. The Deutsche Luftstreitkräfte and the Lufwaffe were very different organisations. The elite in WWI - mostly the Prussians - were mostly in the Air Force or had field commands. In WWII, the elite pilots were in the Nazi Party, who despised Prussians.

I think The Blue Max does an admirable job of explaining the attitudes of the German Air Force in WWI. It helps that Karl-Michael Vogler was such a great actor and that the book was well enough written that the material was good to start with.

reply

Thanks for the comments-I really didn't know that much about the make up of the German Airforce in WW-1 (German fighter stuff in WW 2 is more my area of interest); funny you should say that about Prussians, as the officer I wrote about previously-the same upper class officer did make commentary about him being a 'typical humorless East Prussian'; another class conscious 'jab', perhaps?






Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

reply

By WW2 warplanes were generally metal skinned and much heavier but that was not the case in this war. WW1 planes were fabric covered and only the engine contained many heavy and metal parts. They also carried less fuel than later planes. They sometimes broke up, they were quite fragile and were sometimes more like large kites with an engine than what we would today understand as aircraft. But they do not seem to have exploded very often. Ironically because they were fragile, bullets often did less structural damage to them than to the metal planes of WW2. Bullets punched through the fabric and out the other side with doing much damage unless they hit the engine or the person or persons crewing it.

"Chicken soup - with a *beep* straw."

reply

Perhaps the movie's plot details were inaccurate in some ways, but the aerial combat scenes were very evocative of the real thing. I attended a meeting of the Cross and Cockade Society of World War I Aerial Historians in 1970, during which "The Blue Max" was screened. I happened to end up sitting next to Max Holzem, a pilot in Jasta 16 during the 1914-1918 war. After one of the extended flying scenes I glanced at him, and he had tears in his eyes. Apparently he found it quite moving.

reply