MovieChat Forums > Au hasard Balthazar (1966) Discussion > Question about Marie (spoiler)

Question about Marie (spoiler)

posted 19 years ago by Erich-13
32 replies | jump to latest

I recently watched "Au hasard Balthazar" for the first time, and found it incredibly moving. I just couldn't stop thinking about it afterwards, which raised a question in my mind. On my initial viewing, when Marie's mother states "She's gone," my interpretation was the most direct one: that she had died as a result of the beating. However, on further thought, another explanation occurred to me: that she had committed suicide out of guilt or shame. And then yet another interpretation: that she had died, not from any physical injuries, but because she had succumbed to despair and lost the will to live.

Would anybody care to share their thoughts as to which of these is the most likely cause of Marie's death? I'm sure a good case could be made for any of them (which is just one of the reasons I admire the ambiguity of Bresson's work)...

[–] chagataev 19 years ago

I initially assumed that she died from the beating or simply from despair. Suicide never crossed my mind because of the parallels between Marie and Balthazar. They were both victims of others. In my opinion she did not commit suicide but perhaps died as the result of both physical injuries and of a certain spiritual resignation, I wouldn't quite call it despair. The reason I think this is because of the way Balthazar died, physically wounded yet with a sort of willfulness (sacrificial perhaps) as he slowly lays down among the sheep. This may be a stretch but it's what I've come to believe after thinking about this film for weeks. I think it's so wonderful to have a film stay with you and challenge you for so long after seeing it. Bresson is a master.

Recently I read an article by a film critic who stated somewhat conclusively that Marie had not died but run away. I find that hard to believe, yet I don't remember Marie ever being referred to as dead, only "gone". Can you remember the word "dead" being used to refer to Marie? I'll have to watch the film again soon. Just thought I'd throw that possibility out there as well. Any thoughts on Marie possibly running away?

[–] ottffsse_sequence 19 years ago

Maybe it's just me but I always though she commited suicide, but I may be merging this and Mouchette for no good reason.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] FridaKForeva 19 years ago

I may be the only one who does not believe she died, but that she went away. If Balthazar’s death is him sort of dying for the sins of man, then Maries death wouldn't make sense. It lessens the poignancy of his death. He died so that she could live. I feel like she ran away from all the pain (Gerard, her parents, the town) and tried to find something better. I have doubts that she could really survive on her own, but that’s something else.

Also, if you see the reactions of the mother and Jacques, I just feel as though they did not react in a way someone would to a death. Jacques just quietly left the room. It is true there are not intense emotions shown on characters faces, so perhaps this is the way a Bresson character would react to the fact that his childhood sweetheart died.

These are the exact words they spoke, why would she not say die?

"Marie is gone."
"Gone?"
"She'll never come back"

Although, if she did die, how did this happen? She did not die of her injuries (she was able to sit up in the carriage after the beating) and I would have to disagree that she committed suicide

[–] MovieMan0283part2 19 years ago

It entered my mind that perhaps she had gone insane, and that's what the mother meant. By the way, did anyone else find themselves repeatedly thinking the mother was a servant and not the man's wife? I'm not sure what put this thought in my head - perhaps she was less well-dressed than he was, and her manner was certainly less aloof - but am I alone in thinking that?

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] iwantaprettypony 16 years ago

I agree with you MovieMan. I thought the same things: that Marie had gone insane, and that her mother was a servant.

[–] JekyllBoote-1 16 years ago

No, MovieMan, you're not alone in initially believing Marie's mother to be some kind of servant or governess.

I'd have to pay more attention to the French-language dialogue, and less to the English subtitles the next time I watch the film, but I wasn't aware that the relationship of wife and mother was made explicit, at least until later on.

Of course, it would have been very un-Bressonian had the mother and father been overtly physically or verbally affectionate to each other or to Marie!

[–] PoppyTransfusion 13 years ago

I thought Marie's mother was a servant too. I wonde rnow if the discrepancy between her and her husband was related to the issue of pride that Marie said her father suffered from.

my vessel is magnificent and large and huge-ish

[–] dmh7-1 19 years ago

For a critic to say that Marie had "conclusively" done anything is perhaps to miss one of the most essential qualities of Bresson films: that it is almost impossible to draw conclusions, and that - in fact - Bresson purposefully avoids allowing a viewer to draw conclusions that are not specifically pictured. Bresson relates this to the very nature of reality (as opposed to the nature of drama), that often a person simply does not know what has happened or how it came to pass. Now, I've only seen "Au Hasard de Balthazar" once and cannot recall if - indeed - any indications are given in the film as to Marie's fate, but - if they are not present IN THE FILM then they are - as far as Bresson seems to believe - unknowable or unimportant.

This approach of Bresson's can - on first viewing - make his films seem terribly dull and challenging, and I think he is - along with Russia's Andrei Tarkovsky - the director most likely to put viewers to sleep. But a certain openness to imagery and patience is rewarded with a purely cinematic experience quite unlike that which the vast majority of films can offer.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Flyckir 19 years ago

I assumed that she ran away.

[–] mjmusic-2 17 years ago

I never considered her dying when i first saw the film, i assumed she had just run away to somewhere very far away where no one knew her and she could try and start fresh. although i guess gone could have meant that she died. Only Robert Bresson knows i suppose

[–] mweinman-1 17 years ago

She definately ran away. I watched the film last night and it never says anything about her dieing. The image of her being brought home on the wagon with the jacket over informs the audience that she is embarass, but in ok health. If she were to have died the direction would have been much clearer.

[–] withnail69 17 years ago

she ran away

[–] lukechong 16 years ago

"Gone" is clearly a euphemism for "dead". The phrase "She'll never come back" makes it clear she's dead. Marie is supposed to be the human counterpart of Balthazar.

I mean, where can she run to?

[–] mark-hanson1 19 years ago

Nowhere in the film is it stated or even implied that Marie died after the beating -- her mother only says that she's "gone" -- and in fact the possibility hadn't occurred to me until I read this thread. It's far more likely she simply ran away again -- to rejoin Gerard, or to be with the miser, or somewhere else. She'd already run away once to be with the miser, and she told him she wanted to run away again.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] AssaultOnLogic 18 years ago

Was she only beaten? It seems unlikely to me that four boys would beat her up and then run off with all her clothes just for the hell of it.

[–] kgiverso 18 years ago

After viewing this film I came to the conclusion that Marie had NOT died.

"Also, if you see the reactions of the mother and Jacques, I just feel as though they did not react in a way someone would to a death. Jacques just quietly left the room. It is true there are not intense emotions shown on characters faces, so perhaps this is the way a Bresson character would react to the fact that his childhood sweetheart died."

I completely agree with this, the reactions by mother and Jacques just weren't convincing of death at all. Though, it is possible that they have no emotion due to shock, but I find that difficult to believe.

"It entered my mind that perhaps she had gone insane, and that's what the mother meant."

This comment came off as very intriguing to me. It is very possible that she becaome insane and that not Marie physically had "gone" but that her psyche had "gone."

For the record this movie should be viewed by all, it is worth it. Also, no one should base an opinion on a film without seeing it first, you can't let the opinions of others influence you to not see a film, always be your own critic. Your own emotions to a film are by far the most important, everyone is different.

[–] thebard-5 18 years ago

she ran away

[–] kgiverso 18 years ago

what makes you SO certain?

[–] jacknpoppy 17 years ago

In the scene after, when the priest is with the father, on his deathbed, it cuts to the old lady outside.

(In English subtitles) she says "Dear God, don't take him too. Not yet."

This immediately confirmed to me that she had indeed died, not run away, but it's not 100% certain.

[–] AndreiRC 16 years ago

Yes that "too" intrigued me too, but i think that she ran away because she says at some point before she gets raped that she wants to "have it out with them" also before that on the bench she tells jacques about reality, i think her running away means somehow her growing up...and leaving that world behind for a better one and in this sense you can see the running away as a death too. It's like hers is a personal spiritual death, an inner death just for herself to move on, an egocentrical death, and balthazar's an universal death for all...

[–] Jeezy-Creezy 12 years ago

Perhaps the Mother was troubled over Marie's decision to join a Nunnery?

..I know I'd be upset too :)

[–] Vannyz03 16 years ago

Wasn't it mentioned in the film at some point that she wanted to run away from home? That is why I thought the mother was making a reference to her having run away.

[–] headnotfound 14 years ago

yes, there is a scene where she comes out of the rain to visit an old man(i forget the character), and after she says that everyone knows he hides his money in his shoe, he fetches some of that money and gives it to marie. Marie gives it back saying "it's not money I want, it's a friend.. i want a friend to show me how to run away." not verbatim, but she does say she's always wanted to run away.

No Jaws is going to bust up my Sea World!

[–] Insanislupus 14 years ago

At which point is she eaten by Cloverfield?

I don't think, therefore I am not.

[–] engammleryss 16 years ago

Not only a masterpiece of cinema, but also probably the hardest film to watch I have ever seen (that includes Mochette). The way Bresson shows the way humans torture and make use of animals as slaves, side by side with the similar - but much easier for humans to understand - suffering of Marie was striking and brilliant. The acting by Anne Wiazemsky was indeed remarkable and her lifeless stare often felt like a spike rammed through your heart.

Just a thought about the ending. I also find it likely that the horrible gang-rape at the end likely proved to be more than her psyche could handle, and that it was indeed her mind that was "gone". Note that when you see her cuddled up there, you hear her cry - up until then she hadn't shown any real signs of humanity, constantly locking away her feelings in order to keep herself sane.

Personally I was almost shaking with disgust for humanity by the end of the film.

[–] manuelmartinez 15 years ago

Mother: Marie est partie.
Jacques: Partie?
Mother: Elle ne reviendra plus jamais.

In French, "she's gone" means exactly that: She has gone away - to start a new life and will never come back.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] PoppyTransfusion 13 years ago

I didn't expect Marie to die and could easily be persuaded she had either run away or perhaps broken down. But I recall her saying that she would do anything for Gerard even kill herself if he asked her too. Bearing this in mind and not knowing what was said to her during the rape and beating, it is possible she did kill herself and that Gerard might have said something that she took to mean she should do so.

It would link her fate to Balthazar whose death is indirectly caused by Gerard, as would be Marie's suicide.

my vessel is magnificent and large and huge-ish