i certainly liked both the movie and the book
it's been a few dozen years since i read the fink novel ,,, the element i liked about the fink novel was young trooper ryan's journal ,,, ryan is the perspective character in both but the book tell you thatryan wants to be a writer and is developing a story about manly heroic deeds ,,, the book ends with ryan's death as a landlord trying to collect rents ,,,ryan's children have no interest in the story of heroism under fire and calously discard the manuscript
in a sense ryan became his worst evil
dundee's descent into the bottle is not adequately explained in the movie ,,, i don't recall how the book explained it
the movie version ends with the recrossing of the rio grande ,,, in the book version captain tyreen survives the battle and recovers the flag ,,, in the movie the death of tyreen is dramatically staged
perhaps you should visit the libary of congress in washington and read the filed copyright version of the screen play
HA Andrews
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mausermike63
20 years ago
If I'm ever in Washington D.C. I'll have to pay a visit to the library of congress. I would prefer that the unedited version of the movie be released instead. Perhaps all of Peckinpah's major works will become available.
Dundee's descent into the bottle is not depicted in the book. The book has Dundee off to Durango to attend to an arrow wound that left him delirious, probably due to the Indian practice of rubbing their arrowheads into decaying meat. There is no descent or despair because there is no Senta Berger character in the book that catches him womanizing that causes him to go into a tailspin.
I think it's interesting that the subject title of your post calls this movie "The Last of the Rousing Westerns." I can recall many of the subsequent westerns, like LITTLE BIG MAN and SOLDIER BLUE as changing from a tradtional point of view to making commentaries on contemporary society or attempting to be revisionistic. You might be right. Other than some of John Wayne's later works, between MAJOR DUNDEE and SILVERADO I can't recall many westerns like MAJOR DUNDEE.
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deanofrpps
20 years ago
We can only understand the past in terms of what it has become. I would classify Major Dundee in the category Adult Western. There is plenty of flag waving but the characters as large as they are are pitiably human: Tyreen the Irish immigrant passing himself off as the southron aristocrat, Dundee the drunk, Trooper Ryan, a boy from the City who's coming of age but who at least in the book version keeps the journal because he wants to become the great writer, the southron deserter who is a perfect foil to all confederate bravado.
The characters all have their strengths but that achiles heel is none too far from the surface. The movie neither underplays nor overplays the role of African-Americans in the frontier Army. The strain of realism that runs through the movie distinguishes itself both from the revisionism which followed and the wagon train adventures that preceded it.
a cheery cherio
HA Andrews
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smith93
20 years ago
Other than some of John Wayne's later works, between MAJOR DUNDEE and SILVERADO I can't recall many westerns like MAJOR DUNDEE.
How exactly are these movies like Major Dundee? A movie like Silverado, aimed at recapturing the "don't stop long enough to think about how ridiculous all of this is" spirit of the old fashioned b-westerns. Major Dundee had nothing to do with those types of movies. Peckinpah took the tradition of John Ford, using historically situated westerns to explore his understanding of America's national identity, focusing in particular on the west, and turned it upside down; reflecting the dissalusionment and iconoclastic spirit of the Vietnam generation.
Please, enlighten me, how is Major Dundee at all like Silverado? For one thing, Major Dundee is good.
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mausermike63
19 years ago
I was not drawing a comparison between the two movies. When I stated "between MAJOR DUNDEE and SILVERADO" I was referencing a timeline. SILVERADO is widely credited for bringing back the Western genre after over a decade where few westerns were made. Those that were made in the interim often had themes reflecting current times like SOLDIER BLUE, LITTLE BIG MAN, and ULZANA'S RAID. As the '60s came to a close, the traditional Western faded and the likes of LITTLE BIG MAN arose.
I don't think that MAJOR DUNDEE was in any way a commentary on the Vietnam War era and its generation. It was released in '65 and had its story written prior to the Gulf of Tonkin. Any comparison is coincidental. If you can find any quotes from Peckinpah, Fink, or any of the producers to support your claims, by all means post them.
I think what Deanofrps was getting at in his post about DUNDEE was it was one of the last movies where the Indians were portrayed strictly as the antagonists as in many Westerns prior to it. The treatment of Indians in latter movies were more sympathetic to their plight.
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tomcat69w
19 years ago
I saw this when I was 11 years old and a few times since but on t.v. as was the case early this morning on amc. The scenes in Durango have been cut down and although I wish to get this on dvd I'd like the cut and uncut versions,...it was first experience of a Peckinpah movie and I think the movie was based on Julin Finks novel not the other way around. Some years ago I also read that during the making of this movie Richard Harris, James Coburn Peckinpah and others went out into the desert at night to eat peyote and drink tequila and howl at the moon. Quite a bit of intersting trivia,...I'd like to see all that on the dvd as well. Peckinpah wanted to make this movie as bloody/violent as The Wild Bunch,..but the studios wouldn't let him,...4 years later he went ahead and made the classic The Wild Bunch and movies were never the same after that! Thank God & Sam Peckinpah wherever U are,...probably drinkin' tequila w Coburn & Harris!
Love & Peace T'
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bullit2513
19 years ago
That's quite a picture with Coburn, Harris, and Peckinpah drinking it up in the desert. How much would you pay to hear that conversation?
"I don't mean to be a sore loser, but if when it's over, I'm dead, kill him." Butch Cassidy
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tomcat69w
19 years ago
I'd give my left-nut to 'have been there' 3 real life 'heroes of mine' (now sadly gone) hootin' it up Yeah!!! Too bad they didn't 'film' that! HA!
Love & Peace T'
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deanofrpps
19 years ago
Sorry for the delay. An interesting point that you make deserves thought.
Major Dundee is great through a confluence of conflicting aims. Heston wanted an adult Western strong in history long in character, the studios wanted a John Ford knock-off, and Peckinpah wanted an opera of violence.
What emerged is not quite any of those, but great nonetheless. I can't say I liked other Peckinpah operas of violence. However I did like Pecinpah's CROSS OF IRON made with some of the Major Dundee cast.
It's very difficult in the US which projects this air of moral superiority to see the enemy as human. Pecinpah managed to do that in Cross of Iron.
A Cheery Cherio
HA Andrews
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tomcat69w
19 years ago
I have not yet seen 'Cross of Iron' due mainly to the fact that 'That Era' in Hollywood was churning out War Movies faster than crap thru a Goose. And at the time had tired of the genre. Since it iS Peckinpah,...sounds like a must-have! During the filming of Dundee,...Peckinpah, James Coburn and Richard would venture off into the desert at night, eat Peyote and drink Tequila & Howl at the Moon! Would've loved to have been there for that! Cheers!
Love & Peace T'
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deanofrpps
19 years ago
Do see CROSS OF IRON. Cross of Iron though it deviates from the Book of the same title ranks with ALL'S QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT both the Lew Ayres and the Richard Thomas-Ernest Bourgnine versions. Because CROSS OF IRON deals with a better known war than an outcrop of the US Civil War, the Apache raids, the French in Mexico and the Juarista rebellion, CROSS OF IRON may have attracted more attention than MAJOR DUNDEE. On the balance both films are equally good.
HA Andrews
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