Major Dundee 'Survivor' Style - Major Dundee (1965) Discussion

[–] PSJazzFan 20 years ago

Yes, they must have been killed. The last scene where the unit is still in the river has them without any French cavalry immediately in their midst. If there were any wounded they could have recovered them, unless the wounded were back on the far side of the river from where they came, where French reinforcements were arriving.

The movie is quite different than the book:

Survived: Maj. Dundee, Capt. Tyreen

Captured: Trooper Ryan

Killed: Lt. Graham; there were no black volunteer survivors

Executed: Sgt. Chillum (was executed by Dundee for raping a woman captive of the Apaches).

The ending in the book is quite different. Dundee's force is divided into three groups to face a large but stretched out column of French cavalry. The French perceive each of the columns as the vanguard of a larger force and don't pursue them to the full extent. The confederates form one column and circumvent the French before them. They do reappear to aid Dundee's column. Dundee's force in the center is his union force that with the exception of himself are killed or captured. The third force to the left is primarily made up of the civilian volunteers and NCO's and is likewise decimated by the French. There are several captured who serve prison sentences before being repatriated.

Tyreen goes on to run for office back in his home state.

Trooper Ryan becomes an editor of a small newspaper.

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[–] bullit2513 20 years ago

What happens to Samuel Potts(James Coburn) and Sergeant Gomez(Mario Adorf) in the book? I've been looking for a copy of Harry Julian Fink's Major Dundee book, but haven't been able to find one. Thanks for the help Jazz Fan.

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[–] PSJazzFan 20 years ago

It's unclear exactly as to their ulimate fate. Gomez and Potts are last mentioned as route markers for the three columns, so they were continuing as scouts. Since the story was relayed in the first person, and even Ryan mentions in the heat of battle the inability to take roll, the fate of the two is left to the reader's imagination.

Just to clear up the three columns again. Tyreen's confederate column on the right circumvents the French and ultimately comes to the aid of Dundee. About half of them that survived the last conflict with the french die on the way back into Texas from thirst and exhaustion. Dundee appears to be the only one in his union center column to make it back into Texas, Trooper Ryan is captured helping him escape by colliding his mount with a french lancer and is taken prisoner. The left column, which is comprised of civilian volunteers (more in the book than in the movie) and some union NCOs, are mentioned only as having two captured to serve a sentence along with Ryan.

I thought the movie was much better than the book. The movie script was also written by Harry Julian Fink. The major story lines are improved and condensed for ease in a movie format. The book does have its finer aspects. There are more characters and some of them would have helped make the movie even better. One was a civilian who was renowned for his marksmanship. In one scene, he is sent alone to hold up a French column with his shooting abilities while Dundee's column increases their distance, much like Anthony Quinn's character Andreas in THE GUNS OF NAVARONE. Another aspect of the book that is superior to the movie was the its description of the difficulties of life on the trail. That could never be fully portrayed on film.

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[–] deanofrpps 20 years ago

it's been a long time since i read the book but i do believe its epilogue projects an ironic fate for Trooper Ryan and for the journal Ryan carefully kept, a warning to all writers.

HA Andrews

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[–] PSJazzFan 20 years ago

In the book, Trooper Ryan is murdered in Chicago as he was collecting a subscription fee to his own published newspaper. Not much detail of this event, it ended the novel abruptly.

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[–] deanofrpps 20 years ago

dear ps jazz:

i agree the ending was stark for some of the favorite characters in Mr Fink's book version. my recollection from reading the book 40 years ago that trooper ryan was murdered collecting rent in nyc ,,, he had failed as a newsman (or the paper had failed as they oft did) and become in his own eyes the worst form of pariah: a landlord. the fate of the book he was writing to record the feats of major dundee is a warning to all would-be authors

refresh my recollection. how did capt tyreen do in politics?

and what happened to the major after the troop returned to NM?

cheers (& Fall in Behind The Major!)
HA Andrews

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[–] PSJazzFan 20 years ago

I was wrong about the location of Trooper Ryan's last days. He was murdered in Kansas at the age of 62 while trying to collect on a three year old subscription. Ryan had wanted to get his journal published but was unable to and while running his own weekly newspaper, had the intent of getting it done but never had the time for it. The ending in the book is very brief and doesn't indicate anything about a warning to would-be authors in the case of Ryan.

Tyreen became a Representative of the state of South Carolina to Congress. There was no mention of his success as a politician.

Dundee eventually rose in rank to colonel before retiring. No details as well of his latter years.

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[–] deanofrpps 20 years ago

Dear PS Jazz:

Thank you for your note which bears furher comment.

I liked Major Dundee, both in its movie form with Charleton Heston and Richard Harris and in the somewhat varying book by Mr Fink because its characters had depth, even those at the periphery of the story, there was some depth to the situations they faced, there was significant thematic development.

I think Fink in the book took note however brief that ryan's children simply saw no value in the great adventure and threw the drafted manuscript away. This was the sly warning to would be writers. Considering all the trouble on the set of Maj Dundee the note may have been a coy self-criticism.

novels of the time were not the 900 page monstrosities they've become; most were short like major dundee and relatively inexpensive. In 1965 Major Dundee sold for 50c, a bit higher than the usual 35c for a paper bound. Admission to the theatre was 35c, a little above the usual 25c.

i'm not much of a follwer of hollywood personalities but director sam peckinpah also directed Cross of Iron, a daring exploration of the German side of WW II with much of the Maj Dundee cast. Yet Cross was not quite as good as Maj Dundee.

a cheery cherio

HA Andrews

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[–] deanofrpps 20 years ago

in fink's very short novel, the keeper of the journal and narrator of the story trooper tim ryan has an interesting fate awaiting him and the book he intends to write; Captain Ben Tyree (Richard Harris) in the Fink book survives the skirmish with the french

a cheery cherio
HA Andrews

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] Hancock_the_Superb 19 years ago

Okay, just for the record Priam lives. If you watch at the very end as the survivors of Dundee's column pull away, he's the very last one in line. Just thought I'd post this since I don't think anyone definitely answered it.

"It is recognized that you have a funny sense of fun." - Claude Rains, "Lawrence of Arabia"

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[–] bullit2513 19 years ago

I went back and watched that scene, but I don't think that is Priam. To me, it looks like one of Tyreen's few remaining Confederates.

I think Priam is killed during the ambush of Sierra Charriba. At one point, you see him fighting, firing his rifle and swinging it around. Then, he's gone during the scenes when the command is riding toward the river.

Too bad the supporting cast couldn't have received more attention or at least show they're death scene. Pickens, Jones, Priam, and Peters death scenes are too quick and its hard to tell who is who.

"Well, Major, it looks like you have found yourself a real war after all." Captain Ben Tyreen

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[–] mausermike63 19 years ago

I think that there were a total of 11 survivors:

Major Dundee
Lieutenant Graham
Sgt. Gomez
Trooper Ryan
Sam Potts
Sgt Chillum
Jimmy Lee
one from Aesop's black troop
one Union cavalryman from the Fort Benlin command
two confederates who rode last

I thought that the fight with the French was well done. It was done hurridly, but that sort of illuminates how quickly the casualties rose.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Hancock_the_Superb 19 years ago

Okay, I think you're right, it's just a Confederate who looked a lot like him.

*Massive spoilers for those who haven't seen the film*

The real question is: just how many men does Dundee have? I tried to count up all of his guys, and this is what I got (I'm probably off by a few):

- Dundee
- Ryan
- Priam
- Lt. Graham
- Wiley
- Dahlstrom
- Eight other civilians not mentioned by name (after recruiting Wiley, Dundee or Ryan says there have been thirteen recruits)
- Aesop and his six black soldiers
- Tyreen
- Twenty Confederate troopers (including the Hadleys, Benteen, and Chillum)
- Potts, Riago, and the other scout
- Nine or ten other Union troopers

So, that gives us a composite total of 54 or 55 men. We'll assume the latter for now.

Casualties:
- Apache river ambush. 14 killed (including Apache scout #2). (41)
- Two others are mentioned as having died of wounds or sickness after the battle. (39)
- O.W. Hadley (38)
- One trooper is killed during the rescue of Dundee (37)
- Riago (36)
- Unclear number (let's say five) during the ambush of Charriba (31)
- 20 (based on the number of 11 survivors reached in another post) killed in the battle with the French, leaving us with 11.

Does that cover it?

"It is recognized that you have a funny sense of fun." - Claude Rains, "Lawrence of Arabia"

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[–] bullit2513 19 years ago

Hancock, your number of 54 or 55 men sounds about right. During Trooper Ryan's narration early in the movie after Lt. Graham and C Company return to Fort Brenlin, he mentions that Graham brought back "50 new Henry repeating rifles" along with his baby howitzer. Since Aesop and the other black troops have regular, Civil War muskets, I'd say your estimation is pretty dead on.

"Congratulations, Major. It appears that at last you have found yourself a real war." Ben Tyreen

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[–] wohara1 19 years ago

Somewhere along the line, Priam picked up a new, distinctive, highcrowned hat according to a still I have. I'm pretty sure that it's him holding the horses on the skyline way in the background when Graham's howitzer crew is blasting away at the French. But, to quote Cole Younger in Long Riders, "Every once and awhile, I'm wrong".

We deal in lead, friend.

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[–] Hancock_the_Superb 19 years ago

Maybe he was killed in the final battle?

"Now, maybe you don't know it, but you're a-fixin' to get tried." ~ Ben Johnson

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[–] Hancock_the_Superb 19 years ago

He lived to the last battle, at least. When the troop comes to halt after finding the French lancers across the river, he can be seen behind Dundee to the left. I'm pretty sure he got killed somewhere along the line, but he lived at least that long.

"That scarf belonged to Lieutenant Brannin." "It's for you, Major!"

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[–] bullit2513 18 years ago

Hancock's right about Priam (Dub Taylor). In that shot of Dundee's troop slowing up as they reach the river, Priam is seen behind Dundee. If I've got the right guy, he's wearing a somewhat floppy hat and a reddish vest.

Then again, if it is Priam, you see him down the line right around Tyreen's "Well, Major, I shall see you in Texas" line. So I guess he gets killed sometime during that last melee in the river with the French lancers cause he's certainly alive before the fight. Maybe Priam's death was lost in the shuffle of all the editing.

Because all the other supporting characters, Sgt. Chillum, Aesop, Gomez, Potts, Graham, Arthur Hadley, Dahlstrom, Ryan, Jimmy Lee Benteen, Wiley, all get their moment that shows whether they live or die. It doesn't seem like Peckinpah would just leave something like Priam's death scene out.

"Congratulations, Major. It appears that at last you have found yourself a real war." Ben Tyreen

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[–] Hancock_the_Superb 15 years ago

bump

"I do NOT want your tawdry tales of office lust infecting my newsroom!"

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