MovieChat Forums > The Greatest Story Ever Told (1965) Discussion > Question for Catholics

Question for Catholics

posted 19 years ago by shandae77
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This is totally off Greatest Story Ever Told topic. I'm looking for anybody that can give some serious answers to questions I have regarding what may be Catholic imagry and symbolism in The Passion of the Christ. I tried posting these questions on the POTC board but I can't seem to get any real answers. Most people there are only interested in semantic bickering. So here goes.

There are a couple of items in that I would like some clarification on.

1.) Just before Judas kills himself he sees a camel (or maybe a horse) that is infested with magots. Does this mean something? I thought it may just be an artistic device to highten Judas' sense of dispair or reflect how he felt inside.
Or I thought it may be related to some kind of Catholic imagry. I was raised as a protestant and while I do understand the major differences between these two thoughts I remain pretty uneducated on the finer points of Catholicism and it's symbolism.

2.) During the crusifixion I noticed there was a little gold cup hanging from the cross of the man to Jesus' right (on the left side of the screen). Is this a little piece of historical trivia? As the man was a thief Maybe it was what he was condemned for stealing? Or was it just a little detail with no significance?

Little things, I know, but they caught my attention and I just wondered.

As a side question, does anyone know why Gibson chose to have Judas hang himself over the sometimes used method of having him fall to his death?

[–] ocuinn 19 years ago

In trying to answer your questions briefly:

1) The idea of the horse being eaten by maggots is probably symbolism for how our sins eat away at us. Because Judas sinned mortally by betraying the Son of Man it meant being eternally separated from God. He rejected God and so must spend eternity separated from him. This separation is what Catholics, and indeed so should all Christians, believe to be Hell. Hell is not fire and burning but rather eternal separation from the Creator that gave us life and who feeds us throughout life with his saving grace.

Being separated from God on earth is a torture in itself like being eaten away at, hence the maggots and the horse. Judas had several opportunities to ask Jesus for forgiveness but he refused in his pride and instead chose to remain separated from God. Due to this the devil continued to eat away at his conscience, his guilt, his emotions etc. until finally he was consumed and ended it with suicide. God always gives us the opportunity to say sorry, to ask forgiveness and to receive his infinite mercy. If we refuse we remain separated from him and so it is like being eaten up gradually by maggots but if we accept no matter how large our sin we will be forgiven. He left us on earth the Church through St. Peter saying "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven". He gave the Church authority to forgive sins on earth. All we need to do is ask.

2)I don't have an answer for this

3)Gibson was following the gospels and I guess he chose the hanging because it is in the gospels.

AP Quinn

"Science can purify religion for error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes." - John Paul II

[–] justoldbill 19 years ago

Matthew says Judas hanged himself, probably a parallel to the hanging of Jesus on the cross. Acts has him falling to his death in a field he bought with his blood money, a warning to ill-gotten gains. The other gospels are silent since it isn't really Judas' story. The two stories are generally reconciled by having Judas' hanged body dropping and bursting open, much like how the Nativity stories are reconciled with the presence of both Luke's shepherds and Matthew's magi. But don't let Mel Gibson fool you. Most of the images he employs are not of official Catholic recognition, but of a disturbed "visionary" named Anne Catherine Emmerich.

[–] tommy_gun1221 10 years ago

I've read the life of Anne Catherine Emmerich and found her anything but "disturbed". She was an extremely devout nun who was completely dedicated to Christ through prayer and suffering serving the poor. One can be so completely united to Christ when they take the Gospel literally as St Francis and Padre Pio did that miraculous visions healing and miracles can be worked through them.

[–] Deusvolt 18 years ago

The cup could be a symbol for the Catholic dogma on transubstantiation. That is, at the Last Supper, Jesus Christ gave the power to His apostles to change ordinary bread and wine into His body and blood. The thief at His right, presumably the good thief who repented and believed in Him, is saved by the power of his sacrifice on the cross which spilled his blood which is bequeathed to mankind through his Church which has the power to transubstantiate wine into His blood.

Some Christian denominations borne out of the Protestant Revolt deny this. Zwingli and Calvin rejected this but not Luther and Wesley who both continued to believe in The Real Presence in the Eucharist.

It is doubtful if the articles stolen by a thief would be displayed at his tumultuous exectution where they may be stolen again. Besides, it appears that both thieves were hardened, long-time or "professional" thieves so it would be impossible to display all their ill-gotten loot which would have been all converted into coinage or other goods. Some scholars argue that the thieves may have been rebels. Since rebels forage and loot for their supplies, the Romans called them thieves. Crucifixion is the usual punishment meted by Romans to rebels. Thieves would have been worked to death in a mining camp, as rowers in a galley or simply beheaded.

[–] jamghi 18 years ago

Some ancient versions of the Gospel of Matthew add the words "with a halter" to the words "he went and hanged himself." That's probably what the ass is doing there to begin with, no matter what it may further symbolize.

[–] Deusvolt 18 years ago

Maggots are thought to be instruments or agents of the Devil as "Beelzebub" (a play on the word "Baalzebub" or Lord Baal, a popular Canaanite god) means "Lord of the Flies." A dead camel being feasted upon by maggots obviously symbolizes an ignominious death.

Some devout Jewish women made it their vocation to provide sedative potions to fellow Jews suffering crucifixion. Such mixtures were believed to contain myrrh (one of the gifts to Jesus as an infant that seemed to foretell the manner of his death) and fish gall (which is very bitter signifying the bitterness of his death as foretold in the Scriptures). It also contained sour wine or vinegar which also has analgesic effects. The cup must have been used to administer the potion although in Jesus case, we see that near his death, it was given to him on a sponge stuck on a spear.

As for the manner of Judas' death, there are variations of it as told in one of the Gospels and as mentioned in passing in Acts. One had him hanging himself, another had him falling from a high place and his insides spilled as he landed. Both accounts could be true. It is not uncommon for the rope of a hanged man to break and in Judas' case that could have caused him to fall and spill his guts. Presumably, he must have hanged himself on a hill or near a cliff.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Deusvolt 17 years ago

The starter of the thread did say that he tried the Passion of Christ Board but nobody was answering him because the site has been deluged by bickering posts. Haven't seen the posts and seeing our original poster's predicament, I tried answering his questions as when "Greatest...." was first released there were a lot of complaints that it did not closely follow the gospels. Many were puzzled by "Judas" (David MacCullum) jumping into an open furnace in the film.

[–] CodaSky 17 years ago

As a Catholic I'll chime in.

The first reply was correct regarding maggots. They symbolize the underlying evil of sin, which eats away underneath a veneer of beauty or sublimity. Gibson described his image of Satan in The Passion in this way.

Secondly, the Chalice would represent holding the Precious Blood of Christ.

By the way, Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich was beatified a few years ago for her holiness. She is hardly deranged.

[–] agraphobia 17 years ago

Anne Catherine Emmerich was beatified solely for her faith and devotion in spite of her suffering. Her visions were not considered and were actually what held up her beatification for over 100 years. Her visions were transcribed by Clemens Brentano and there is evidence he embellished them in accordance with his own beliefs and for literary affect. While calling her deranged is innacurate, your post implies the Dolorous Passion and other works based on her visions are endorsed by the Catholic Church and should be treated as canon. This is simply not true.

[–] tracyfigueira 16 years ago

Having been raised as a Baptist, it bothers me that the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist is always portrayed in movies in the Catholic manner, i.e., sprinkling. Wouldn't it have been total immersion? Otherwise why bother going to the Jordan when you could just stay home and pour a cup of water on somebody's head.
Protestants are discriminated in film versions of the New Testament. They almost always reflect a Catholic interpretation.

[–] SilverCreedWolf 16 years ago

Catholics baptize using both forms, sprinkling and full body immersion. It would depend upon the Parish in which the baptism takes place on how the Sacrament is administered.

Please learn a little something about Catholicism before making such a blind statement. Yes, I am a Catholic that has grown very weary of such generalizations.

The sprinkle baptism in the films, I believe, are a stylistic creative license. It's more graceful looking on film that way than to have an actor hold his breath, dunk him, and then have to catch his breath and say his lines.

JOE TYRIA
http://www.youtube.com/user/SilverCreedWolf

[–] bastasch8647 15 years ago

Funny how the fundamentalist Protestant mind works. They fault Catholicism for sprinkling rather than dunking. But they forget that the first Christian baptism was performed in the living, running waters of the Jordan River. Now, how many Protestant congregations duplicate this biblical practice of baptism in flowing water? But the poster doesn't condemn Protestants for not following the actual ritual as reported in the NT. Funny how the fundamentalist Protestant mind works.

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[–] amazon423 15 years ago

I never heard of the Ebionites nor the Narareans but am going to look them up. A lot of people do not realize the Gospels and the Testaments were written down centuries after they occurred. The Catholic church did not recognize Mary Magdalene as anything other than a prostitute till the 7th century nor know church history and still believe that Sunday is the Sabbath when it is really still on Saturday. Nowhere in the Bible is the Sabbath changed by Jesus. Check out Emperor Constantine for that as well as the setting of the date of birth of Jesus and the time of Easter. A lot of the ritual comes from people whom the Jewish evolved from. Blindly believing is stupid. Check out the history.

[–] bastasch8647 15 years ago

You might want to check out

http://www.compassionatespirit.com/what%27s_new.htm

http://jamestabor.com/blog/

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=22&letter=E&search=ebionites

Hope you enjoy your search.

[–] amazon423 15 years ago

Thanks for the tips.The older I get the more I question the accuracy of the Bible and the more I hear about other cultures that contributed to the Rites and Rituals of Christianity and also the stories. I believe in God and Jesus but don't blindly believe. I believe better when archeology and scientific exploration plus stories from other cultures in the area back it up. There was a show on last week that placed the Garden of Eden in the Persian Gulf centuries ago but as happened in the Mediterranean had a flood break down a barrier at the East End of the Gulf. Same goes for the Black Sea and the barrier supposedly at the Rock of Gibralter. Stories based on something real happening that grew legs.

[–] bastasch8647 15 years ago

You're welcome. It's all fascinating stuff. You might like the Ebionite christology that held Jesus to be the human son of Joseph and Mary, who was adopted as "Son" by God at his baptism. Not divine by nature but by "adoption", the Ebionite Christ was regarded as the "prophet like Moses" that some Jews were expecting. Also the Ebionite Jesus says something to the effect: "You are christened with the same oil that christened me" - meaning that his followers, too, shared in "christhood" or messiahship. This latter claim seems almost Buddhistic to me in that there is a divine "christhood" shared mutually with Jesus and believers - and it has some affinity with the Johannine Jesus, who prays that "they all be one, even as we (the Father and Jesus) are one"... anyway, have fun in your explorations. And, that Eden/Flood show you watched sounds intriguing - thanks for sharing.

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[–] vantikaci 10 years ago

The first church and original congregation of Christians was in Syria in Antioch in 37 AD.ot
They were Gentiles, not Jewish.

They still exist today in Damascus. They're called the Syria Orthodox Church.

If you want to explore the first Christians, ask the Syrian patriarchs.

In complete opposition to what you appear to be asserting- the Nazareanes did not even believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch.

Maybe you're confusing the Nazareanes with the Essenes?

Or maybe you're confusing Nazareanes with the Nazarites? Like Samson and John the Baptist?

[–] Clusium 14 years ago

1)What Judas Iscariot found was a dead donkey. I don't think it was meant to symbolize anything, other than the fact that Judas uses the rope which had been tied around the donkey to hang himself upon the tree.

2)Think the cup was just used to give the prisoners something to drink. Nothing more.

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make your signature!

[–] 398 13 years ago

Apparently this question goes back to Mel Gibson's movie, but the Passions which are read during Holy Week are the Passions from the four Gospels.

If the image or event isn't in the Gospels, it isn't a Catholic belief.

It is sort of like the cup of water scene in Ben-Hur while Jesus was carrying the cross. This is fiction and doesn't represent Protestant beliefs.

[–] vantikaci 10 years ago

The Doctors of the Church debated endlessly over the centuries with Doctors who weren't even alive to respond over such specific minutiae as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. (Answer, 10,000).

When a Catholic theologian asserts a "fact" of the Church, they have an argument and previous theologian/Doctor to back it up.

So what does one believe? The Gospel according to Barnabas which states that Judas took Jesus place and was crucified on the cross?

The Gospel of Judas itself that absolves the Jews of Jesus death?

The symbolic significance of maggots is non-existent in Catholic theology.
It's simple confirmation bias.

[–] astockton_uk 10 years ago

2. Crucified prisoners were offered "wine mixed with gall," a sort of anesthetic, although nothing could dull the pain of crucifixion. After all, the effect of the drugged wine would wear off after a couple of hours, while it usually took a couple of days for a man to die on a cross. That's why Pilate was so surprised that Jesus died after only three hours.

The Gospels say that when the drugged wine was offered to Jesus, he refused to drink it. According to the nuns in my parochial school, that was because he chose to experience the full pain of crucifixion.