MovieChat Forums > Battle of the Bulge (1966) Discussion > No lieutenant colonel would ever beg a s...

No lieutenant colonel would ever beg a second lieutenant

posted 15 years ago by jeffyoung1
5 replies | jump to latest

UNREALISTIC SCENE: Lieutenant-colonel Kiley (Robert Fonda) begs a recalicitrant, second lieutenant scout plane pilot to take him up to scout out the German tank columns, despite not have higher-ups approval nor a flight plan. I have some knowledge of how the U.S. Army works. In REAL LIFE that LTC would have put his face six inches away from the 2LT, jabbed his finger into the lieutenant's chest and screamed as loud as he could, cussing, swearing, and threatening the lieutenant, all the while reminding the lieutenant of his low rank and of the LTC's vastly superior rank over him. And you know what, 99% of the time, that lieutenant would be suitable intimidated enough to fly. Even if that 2LT did complain to the LTC's superiors, given the culture of the U.S. Army commissioned officer class, the LTC's superiors would have backed up the LTC over the lieutenant as a matter of principle. No low-ranking commissioned officer ever says, no, to a much higher ranking commissioned officer. In real life, the 2LT may have been able to get away saying no to a captain, but no higher, and that's only a maybe. It would have been the 'old boys club' circling the wagons around the LTC and the second lieutenant may have found his a$$ royally chewed out by the lieutenant colonel's superiors. Or maybe not. If the LTC's superiors understood the situation better, they might decide to ignore the entire affair, telling the 2LT to forget about it and go back to his airplane.

[–] SipteaHighTea 15 years ago

In real life, a lieutenant like James MacArthur would not have put up with such an attitude from his platoon sergeant when he had to tell the sergeant twice to quit shooting at the Germans. He would have put the sergeant under field arrest. Of course, if the lieutenant was a green officer, he would be smart to listen to the sergeant's advice on combat fighting.

In the TV show Combat, the lieutenant gave his sergeant some leeway; however, he did not hestitate to use his authority when the sergeant or one of the sergeant's men step out of line.

[–] Bernnard_Black 15 years ago

It's not unrelaistic at all. Rank doesn't trump ever circumstance, and this was one of them. He can scream all he wants, but he cannot issue an order to take him up; that order would be unlawful, and it's the 2nd Lt's duty NOT to follow it. Seen it myself, in the 12 years I was in the Army. Once, we went on a brief deployment to Turkey to demo/show off M1 tanks, back when the A1 variant first came out. Just put them through their paces, show off the gunnery, etc. When we were there, a river had flooded and the bridge was way too fragile to hold a tank. A Lt. Col. ordered our 2nd Lt. to take our platoon across that river. He refused, saying the river was too deep according to what he'd been told by our local liason officer. The Colonel ordered it AGAIN, and again the Lt. refused. Finally the Colonel gave it up, after the liason guy whistled up his boss, who called on the radio and told the Colonel that if he drove a tank in that river, it'd be there until the river went down...about a month later.

So it happens, sometimes, and there are officers, even senior officers, who know that they can't always order what they want, and sometimes have to get it other ways.

[–] gribfritz2 12 years ago

So American military is really as messed up as the rest of the world says? Scary.

[–] tbirdman-1 12 years ago

Perhaps as the movie showed in the scene you've described that during
WW II a superior officer such as that LTC could have gotten away with
issuing an unlawful order to a subordinate such as that 2nd LT. Now
I served for 8 years in the modern US Navy as an enlisted man and
I can honestly tell you that in today's modern pc correct, touch-feely
military that such an scenario would rarely even occur. For example,
the modern naval equivalent would be a Commander or CMDR giving an
unlawful order to a lower ranking Lieutenant Junior Grade (LT JG).
Now the CMDR outranks the Lt JG though if the younger officer has
any smarts (which many of them do) then he can willfully disobey any
order which he knows is unlawful. And even if his superior officer
were to put him on report then the LT JG has the right to complain to
the commanding officer (CO). Depending on the situation if the CO
were to find that the CMDR tried to issue an unlawful order that
placed anybody under his command in jeopardy then the CMDR would
be reprimanded verbally by his CO and a written report will be
placed into his personnel file as well. Which will remain there
during the duration of his naval service.

I'm James "Sonny" Crockett!

"Call me a sailor or a swabby just don't call me a squid!"

[–] Fingaroo 12 years ago

It's been awhile since I saw this film but, as I remember it, the pilot's initial objection to taking off is that the fog is so thick it would essentially be a suicide mission (and he was right; as it turns out, he is killed when the plane crashes.) He only brings up the lack of orders or a flight plan afterwards until Fonda--Henry not Robert OP--shames him into taking off.