What if the war HAD lasted another year or so?? - Battle of the Bulge (1966) Discussion

[–] lionhart321 18 years ago

It is possible that the Nazis could have developed superweapons given another year. But regardless, the U.S. would have had the atomic bomb first. If the Western front had bogged down into a stalemate as the Nazis planned, it is likely that the A-bomb would have been used against Germany in August 1945, to prevent them from completing their superweapons.

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[–] sjpatejak 18 years ago

A lot of those super weapons never got beyond the drawing board, and some of the more fantastic ones couldn't have worked. (A flying wing capable of carrying enough fuel to go to New York and back, without aerial refueling, and a useful payload was beyond the existing technologies.)Even if they had managed to get them into production, the damage to Germany's infrastructure, lack of fuel, etc. would have limited their effectiveness. The Germans were nowhere near to getting the bomb and didn't have the manpower to hold off the Russians. The war ends in August 1945 with a mushroom cloud.

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[–] Prince_Kaisie 17 years ago

I think that we should think a little different: What if the Allied troops had been held back? The Red army racing west and getting into germany ahead of the US? Catching all the scientists? No Werner von Braun etc? All the blueprints and people who know what they mean in russian hands instead of US? all prior to August 1945(fending off teh US in the west would have meant even more forces lacking in the east to maintain the block). Because i think you are right about the mushroom cloud ending it then and there. Especially if a V4 would have hit New York.
Imagine that scenario...

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[–] Lutador 17 years ago

What people don`t know is that the germans were weeks away from completing an A-bomb. Days before germany surrendered they sent a submarine to Japan carrying the final components to complete a dirty bomb(Okey, they didn`t have an A-bomb), but a dirty bomb would more than enough do the trick.
Then after the bomb had been assembled the Sub was to move in to striking range of the US. But since germany surrendered so did the Sub and it`s crew eventually.

"You have no idea how far I'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation".-Jack Bauer

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[–] geoff-246 17 years ago

Germany was nowhere near completing an A-bomb (or indeed a dirty bomb), as the evidence gained from Werner Heisenberg and his colleagues after the war clearly shows.

There was a shipment of uranium-235 and other technologies dispatched to Japan a few weeks before the end of the war on U-boat 234. The U-boat learned of the German surrender on May 10 1945, and was intercepted and taken over by the US navy on 14 May 1945 off the coast of the US. Whilst the U-boat contained uranium-235 it did NOT have any means of constructing an A-bomb or a dirty bomb.

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[–] schlob77 17 years ago

Absolutely not. The Atomic Bombs were originally to be dropped on Germany, and Berlin would have been the first target. Lucky for Germany, they surrendered before the bombs were ready.

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[–] Fmartiterron 17 years ago

It wouldn't had made any difference. With the Afrika Corps and the Sixth Army defeated in Africa and Russia Germany had no chance to stop the advancing allied forces.

Even if they had stopped those armies in time for the new super-weapons to be ready, by that time the allied bomb raids would have stopped the Germans from manufacturing them and transporting them to the frontlines.

If the resistance continued, most probably the americans would have thrown the atomic bombs over Germany instead of Japan.

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[–] MadTom 17 years ago

If the resistance continued, most probably the americans would have thrown the atomic bombs over Germany instead of Japan.

That was the original plan of Operation Silverplate. The 509th Group was originally intended to be split into two detachments, one targeted for Germany and the other for Japan. Even if the Germans had enough Me-262 jets to send up after the 509th, the US Army Air Force would have had the P-80 Shooting Star operational by August of 1945 to escort the B-29s and neutralize the German jets.

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[–] DD-931 17 years ago

Wow. A hypothetical dogfight between a P-80 and an ME-262, or between a British Meteor and an ME-262. I'd love to see a simulation of what that would have been like, maybe on the History Channel's DOGFIGHT series.

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[–] MadTom 17 years ago

Wow. A hypothetical dogfight between a P-80 and an ME-262, or between a British Meteor and an ME-262. I'd love to see a simulation of what that would have been like, maybe on the History Channel's DOGFIGHT series.

Can't speak for the Gloster Meteor, but the P-80 and Me-262 performance envelopes were so close (including glitches in their engines in the early stages, with the USAAF holding the P-80 back from full operational status while the Luftwaffe was so desperate they threw the 262 in with those glitches causing several noncombat losses) that it would have boiled down to pilot vs. pilot.

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[–] Vortimer 17 years ago

I have an interest in the Second World War and its hardware and have heard this Nazi fanboy wank fantasy a few times, including from battle recreationists at a major tank display, explaining to largely uninformed audience members how German weapons where totally superior to those of the allies, and how new war winning Wunderwaffen where only weeks away. IMHO for it to have a chance of working -

The allies would have to have immediately stopped bombing German factories.

The Germans would have to have found vast quantities of petrol and other rare materials down the back of a sofa somewhere.

The industrial areas of the USA (and Britain, Canada and the USSR for good measure) be devastated by huge earthquakes.

All development of advanced weapons, such as the Centurion tank and De Havilland Vampire for example, be scrapped.

The new German weapons would have to have worked perfectly, straight off the drawing board. As MadTom mentioned, the ME 262, despite it's advanced aeronautics, had major flaws in it's engines. It took several several production versions before the Panther tank's bugs where sorted out and it hit it's stride.

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[–] TorontoJediMaster 17 years ago

If the Ardennes attack had succeeded, the final outcome of the war really would not have changed.

If the war had lasted another year, it would have just meant twelve more months of combat, as the Germans would likely have been emboldened enough to pull troops back from the West and send them to shore up the Eastern Front.

However, even that is highly unlikely. Manpower would just have been poured into the West by the Allies and the Germans would have been pushed back even if they'd taken Antwerp. The sheer weight of Allied supplies, logistics and air power made that a foregone conclusion.

The war would likely have ended in the autumn of 1945, rather than the spring then.

One thing to remember is that the Allies would soon have the atom bomb. It was originally intended for use against Nazi Germany, but as the war was clearly being won there by conventional means, it was decided to be unnecessary.

However, if something truly drastic had taken place -such as the Normandy invasion failing- then the A-Bomb would have been aimed at the Chancellory in Berlin.

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[–] dtechba 17 years ago

The ME262 wasn't just ineffective becase of its engine flaws but it had major range problems as well. This was a common problem with jets that was really only fixed with the advent of inflight refueling. The ME262 used up so much fuel on takeoff it could only make a couple of passes in combat making it very ineffective as an interceptor using current weapon technologies. Worse, the Allied force knew of its limitations and took to waiting for it to come back from attacks and shot it down when it was so low on fuel it couldn't use its sped to get away. It was more flash than bang....

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[–] zxcv-9 16 years ago

You can simulate a p-80 vs Me-262 dogfight with the 'IL-2 Sturmovik: 1946' game.
It's great.

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[–] rglasby 16 years ago

The main reason for America to invade Europe was the find German technology and scientists. The so called Wunderwaffe really existed; our modern military technology is based on them.

*V2 was the first missile
*The Volksjäger was the first fighter jet
*Vampyr were the first pair of nightvission goggles

Whilst Germany produced some very innocative weapons, this is not quite correct.

A rock was probably the first ever missile but if you're talking guided missile, then it was the V1.
The V2 wasn't accurate enough to hit New York from Europe and even if it was, the damage wouldn't be signficant to the US war effort.

The first flight of the Heinkel He 162 was December 1944. The first flight of the Me 262 was July 1942. And if you want to say that it was used in a strike capacity rather than air superiority a/c you still don't have a point as it's first air-to-air kill was 26th July 1944.

The Vampir infra-red night sight was not goggles. It was a searchlight fitted on top of (usually) an MP-44.

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[–] cineastral 17 years ago

I don't think so. The Soviets were clobbering the Germans on the Eastern Front (they launched an operation near the end of the Battle of the Bulge, and quickly rolled within 70 miles of Berlin.) Furthermore, Germany was in very short supply of war materials and fuel. One of the major reasons (though not *the* reason) why the Germans failed in the Ardennes was because they were always in short supply of fuel and had to often delay the advances to wait for much needed supplies. Hitler was hoping for a victory significant enough to persuade the Western Allies to a separate peace deal, leaving the Soviets out (whom Hitler was still deluded enough to believe that he could hold off using the phantom divisions that he still possessed.)

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[–] ttratsaert 17 years ago

What many people don't know is that Germany had already lost the before the first paratrooper landed in Normandy. The Germans weren’t able to capture Stalingrad, thus blocking the route to the Caspian Sea where the oil was that Hitler needed so badly. The Reason Rommel lost in Africa was because his tanks were running out of Diesel; this is true you can look it up.

The main reason for America to invade Europe was the find German technology and scientists. The so called Wunderwaffe really existed; our modern military technology is based on them.

*V2 was the first missile
*The Volksjäger was the first fighter jet
*Vampyr were the first pair of nightvission goggles

There is no doubt that if Germany was able to put these weapons in mass production they would have won the war. So we may consider ourselves lucky!

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[–] DD-931 16 years ago

Yes yes, once again Russia won the Second World War and the Americans and British had nothing to do with it.

"The main reason for America to invade Europe was the find German technology and scientists. The so called Wunderwaffe really existed; our modern military technology is based on them."

And I suppose the B-29, Pershing tank, P-80, British Meteor, etc. came from the Germans, huh? Oh yeah, and also a little thing called the A-Bomb.

What a crock!

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[–] ttratsaert 16 years ago

Oh yes, the A-Bomb was a fantastic invention, and how brave it was from the Americans to use it on innocent civilians, it really fits the home of the brave!
I think that today this is called a war crime, but it could be me mistaking.

Did you know that only 17% of the American and British infantry fired his weapon outside of basic training?

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[–] DD-931 16 years ago

"It could be me mistaking"?

Well, they always say the first step is in admitting you have a problem.

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[–] ttratsaert 16 years ago

Obviously sarcasm is not your strongest. Could it be possible you're British?

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[–] DD-931 16 years ago

Obviously irony is not your strongest suit. Could it be you're clueless?

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[–] ttratsaert 16 years ago

I'll take that as a "yes".

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] dtechba 13 years ago

Not really because of those who did fire their weapons it was discovered few bothered to do much in the way of aiming. The studies totally changed the way marksmanship was taught in the use military.

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[–] blackjackxxx 13 years ago

Oh yes, the A-Bomb was a fantastic invention, and how brave it was from the Americans to use it on innocent civilians, it really fits the home of the brave!

I think you need to grow up, Obama.

Push the button, Max

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[–] StM-1 16 years ago

"The main reason for America to invade Europe was the find German technology and scientists"

How about preventing all of Europe to fall in the Soviet sphere of influence??

Those wonder weapons would not have changed a thing.

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[–] coolaree 16 years ago

The whole buying time for victory was Hitlers grand delusion.
In anthoer year
Rockets falling on New York and bombing raids would just encourage more patriotism and investment, like in England (I'm assuming).
Fuels still very scarce in Germany.
The Ruhr and Saar areas would be subject to the A-bomb followed by major cities possibly.

Now what if Spain joined the Axis when it started...

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[–] blackjackxxx 13 years ago

The main reason for America to invade Europe was the find German technology and scientists. The so called Wunderwaffe really existed; our modern military technology is based on them.

Where'd you come up with that dash of stupid?

Push the button, Max

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] svenbertil12345 16 years ago

If the war had not ended in Europe in may 1945 the Jews would have used the A-bombs on Germany instead of Japan.

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[–] jloper 13 years ago

By December 1944, the German military was in such a hole that even if half the wonder weapons they were designing could be produced and worked, it was too late. The German army was putting 15-year old boys and 60-year old men in uniform and giving them Panzerfausts. Their situation could be compared to an American football team whose players magically double in strength and speed, trouble is, they're behind 70-0 with 30 seconds left in the 4th quarter. :D

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[–] DocCasualty 13 years ago

By December 1944, the German military was in such a hole that even if half the wonder weapons they were designing could be produced and worked, it was too late. The German army was putting 15-year old boys and 60-year old men in uniform and giving them Panzerfausts.

Spot on and not to mention they had run out of money a couple of years before this with no further conquests in sight.

"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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[–] jeffyoung1 12 years ago

What makes it so hard to envision WWII in Europe lasting into 1946 is the hard realities of actual history.

The Germans could not stop the Red Army from advancing into Germany by the end of 1944.

The Germans faced an irretrivable shortage of experienced pilots and fuel oil.

Simply put, Germany was running out of everything, soldiers, tanks, equipment, fuel, and nothing could put off the inevitable end of the war in 1945.

Only if Germany obtained the atom bomb could the course of the war change but that was unlikely too.

In order for the war to go into 1946, the Red Army would have to continue making the same mistakes in 1943 and 1944 that it did in 1941-42 and even though it took the Red Army generals and Stalin a long time to learn from their mistakes, they did and it would have been not possible for them not to learn from their mistakes. Germany was unable to learn from its mistakes nor could the Germans replace their losses.

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