MovieChat Forums > Hush...Hush, Sweet Charlotte (1965) Discussion > Vivien Leigh

Vivien Leigh

posted 17 years ago by poettesse
82 replies | jump to latest

Vivien Leigh was considered--briefly--for the role of Miriam. What do y'all think? Would she have been as spectacular as deHavilland was?

Love me, love my

[–] smthdonovan 17 years ago

She would have been great. I was a kid in south Louisiana in 1964 when this was being filmed and that was a big thing. I remember a newspaper picture of a reception given at the Governor's Mansion during the filming; it was before Joan Crawford left the film because Bette was giving her such a hard time. The picture showed the Governor's wife, director Aldrich, Bette and Crawford sitting together on a sofa; Bette had a drink in her hand, sitting slumped down and obviously tipsy, and Crawford had a radiant smile. Somebody really ought to look that picture up because such a legend has grown around the misadventure of this, the two women's last, abortive film job together.

[–] poettesse 17 years ago

You know, I think the whole situation/subject would make an incredible book, whether fact or fictionalized. What a meeting of the Titans, eh?

Love me, love my

[–] Harold_Robbins 17 years ago

I think Leigh was in one of her periods of ill-health when approached about CHARLOTTE - how else to explain her rather cruel response, which was something along the lines of "I could just about look at Joan Crawford's face at six o'clock in the morning on a Louisiana plantation, but I couldn't possibly look at Bette Davis's!"

"I don't use a pen: I write with a goose quill dipped in venom!"---Waldo Lydecker

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[–] mark_shleck-1 17 years ago

Just put it down to an actor's conceit; there was a less-than-healthy rivalry amongst the (female) stars from the 1930s' Golden era. Bette Davis was a fine actrss -- as with Joan Crawford -- but somehow I always associated Bette with the Baby Jane character (really unnerved me); until I saw the DVD of the film The Little Foxes, and appreciated just how much depth she had as an actress; same could be said about Joan Crawford et al.

You can't hold a candle to Gulbenkian.

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[–] poettesse 17 years ago

Yes, that was rather an ugly thing to say.....I'm not really a competitive person (as so many actresses were and are,) and I'm often amazed at the unkind, catty, one-up-manship of some actresses, past and present, when questioned about one another. They seem(ed) to love to make these cruel little quotes, since it made them look witty and wonderful. Oh, and of course if a quote will make a headline.....
I seriously doubt lovely Vivien would have been cast anyway, as Bette wanted her pal Olivia for the role....and what Bette wanted, Bette got!

Love me, love my

[–] Jane_Doe01 16 years ago

I'm not really a competitive person (as so many actresses were and are,) and I'm often amazed at the unkind, catty, one-up-manship of some actresses, past and present, when questioned about one another. They seem(ed) to love to make these cruel little quotes, since it made them look witty and wonderful.

They were hilarious, though. I'd say there should be more of those kind of comments nowadays. It's one of the things that makes today's actresses seem so bland and colorless compared to yesteryear's. They don't have the bite, the personality, the sass of the older stars.

[–] cruzlexie 15 years ago

Olivia deHavilland said that.

[–] poettesse 17 years ago

What a wonderful reminiscence! I wonder if that famous photograph still exists...surely so.....what a bit of history!
Do you happen to know the name or general location of the house used in the film? I've long dreamed of going to visit it......

Love me, love my

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[–] poettesse 16 years ago

I'm so pleased that you shared the names and locations of the houses featured in 'Hush, Hush etc.' If I ever get to La. again I'll have to look up the homes...In just a minute I'll be off, Googling for photos of the places!
By the way, I love your quote: "I'm from the New South. That means that I watch Gone With the Wind on DVD". I wish I'd thought of that!

Love me, love my

[–] HarlowMGM 16 years ago

Great post HarlowMGM and it would have been a delicious irony had Claudette Colbert had played Miriam considering All About Eve.

You know, that never even entered my mind but yes indeed that would have been something because of that!! Claudette always praised Bette Davis enthusiastically in the press, I wonder if they would have changed had they worked together. Even though I don't think they were personal friends like she was with Olivia, I think Bette would have been less battlesome with her than when working with Crawford, thanks to Claudette's "lady" reputation like Olivia's.

[–] miriamwebster 17 years ago

No wonder Leigh, Katharine Hepburn and Loretta Young turned it down. The role of Miriam WAS a completely hokey part, just a cardboard villain (like Joseph Cotten's character) to help keep the silly (if enjoyable) story rolling. In retrospect, hard to believe this was up for more Oscars than the far superior Baby Jane.

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[–] miriamwebster 17 years ago

Hahaha!!! Hepburn reference has shown up in several stories about the movie. Maybe she wasn't actually approached but it appears her name was indeed on the short list of possible replacements. Like Leigh, seems like wishful thinking on producer's part. (Supposedly, Barbara Stanywck was offered role of Jewel Mayhew but she would have made a good Miriam, too.)

[–] Harold_Robbins 17 years ago

"Supposedly, Barbara Stanywck was offered role of Jewel Mayhew but she would have made a good Miriam, too."

Davis and Stanwyck - Stanwyck and Davis - either way you spell it, that would have been a teaming as memorable as Davis and you-know-who. Remember that Stanwyck was already a star when Davis came to Warner Brothers in 1932!!!

"I don't use a pen: I write with a goose quill dipped in venom!"---Waldo Lydecker

[–] Hoohawnaynay 17 years ago

Mary Astor was a brilliant actress and perfect for the part of Jewel. She was so understated when everyone else was kind of hammy. I loved her when I first saw her in Desert Fury. Loved her voice and she was very pretty when younger.

[–] rjoh106648 17 years ago

I have a BBC broadcast of an interview that Stanwyck gave to film historian John Kobal in 1964. She said that she WAS offerered the role of Jewel Mayhew but didn't care to do it. She was adamant that she was never offered the role of Miriam when Joan became unavailable, "But HAD I been offered the role I would have checked with Joan first to see how she felt about it, because Joan is a friend of mine".

[–] shopguyperry 10 years ago

On the Sweet Charlotte dvd commentary Glenn Erickson cites an LA Times article dated August 7, 1964 reporting that both Loretta Young and Barbara Stanwyck had already been approached for the role.

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[–] poettesse 17 years ago

Yes, Stanwyck would have been a good Miriam as well....but I can't imagine anyone else but Mary Astor saying to Miriam ".....not even one more minute!"

Love me, love my

[–] ed4evr 16 years ago

I agree. It's a lot of fun to picture other actresses in the Miriam role, but it would've been awful to have missed Miss Astor's final performance.

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[–] onepotato2 16 years ago

In retrospect, hard to believe this was up for more Oscars than the far superior Baby Jane.
by - miriamwebster on Mon Feb 4 2008 23:01:19
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Baby Jane has a plot that stands completely still for hours on end. It's just an extended joke.

[–] vanityfair_713 17 years ago

I'm sure she would've been fabulous as usual...however, I think Olivia's scariness comes partly out of the fact that I was used to seeing her in innocent roles.

There's a really funny quote that Vivien said about almost playing the role...

"Leigh declined, saying, 'No, thank you. I can just about stand looking at Joan Crawford's face at six o'clock in the morning, but not Bette Davis.'"

He said it's all in your head, and I said, so's everything--
But he didnt get it.

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[–] vanityfair_713 17 years ago

That would indeed have been exciting. Still, I can't imagine anyone else playing the role as Olivia did.

He said it's all in your head, and I said, so's everything--
But he didnt get it.

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[–] Doylenf 16 years ago

This is all silly conjecture, because BETTE DAVIS never in her life would consider starring opposite VIVIEN LEIGH. And I mean even if Vivien accepted director Robert Aldrich's plea, Bette would have no part of it. Too much rivalry between them.

She'd never forgiven Vivien for winning for Scarlett (in the same year that Bette was nominated for one of her favorite films, "Dark Victory") and probably envied her for getting "A Streetcar Named Desire" too. So much professional jealousy between those two. Vivien was probably just as cool to the idea of starring opposite Davis. It was not just a flippant remark.

Olivia was the best choice. Director Robert Aldrich said so afterwards. "We were better off with Olivia," he told a reporter. And no, I don't think it was a cardboard role at all. Even AFI had enough sense to nominate Olivia among the screen's "100 Best Villains/Villainesses" a few years ago. It's one of her better latter day performances.

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[–] Doylenf 16 years ago

Totally disagree. De Havilland was anything but drab, especially in this role. She proved to be an excellent bit of accidental casting. Agnes Moorehead, on the other hand, was over-the-top drab, much as I love her as a character actress. She overdid it quite a bit, but was still enjoyable.

[–] aussiebears 16 years ago

Olivia de Havilland was perfect casting as Miriam,she was so subtley evil,i didn't suspect for most of the movie the first time i watched it.It would have been a totally different movie with Crawford,i would have loved to have seen how it may have turned out but i can't think of anyone playing Miriam other than Olivia de Havilland.

As for Agnes Moorehead,her role was over the top but still totally believable at the same time and she still had a few touching moments also.

Mary Astor was perfect as Jewel Mayhew in her two brief scenes,i love the scene where she totally humilates Miriam in the street,great acting.It has been mentioned Barbara Stanwyck was considered for the role of Jewel,as much as Barbara was an excellent actress i just couldn't see her having the impact that Mary Astor had in the scene with De Havilland on the street.Astor was perfect in the other scene having tea with Cecil Kellaway but i think Barbara would have done that scene justice also.

[–] HarlowMGM 16 years ago

I'm not one of Olivia DeHavilland's biggest fans (though I admire her) but it frankly brillant casting to put her in the film. There's not another actress of note who could have pulled it off as perfectly. The part needs an excellent actress yet also one who can play ladylike without betraying the climax or giving it away. Had Crawford or Stanwyck played the part, we would have immediately suspected Miriam may have been up to no good, casting Olivia we're expecting Melanie Wilkes and when her true colors are revealed it's a genuine surprise. Even the brillant Vivien Leigh would have been suspect given her selfish Scarlett and other tempestous parts. The only other actress I feel capable of playing Miriam correctly would have been Claudette Colbert but she wouldn't have been able to top Olivia given what a treat it is to see her back in a southern story but this time as the "bad seed" heir of Melanie.

(On to Ms. Astor, I've never felt the part of Jewel was anything special, small and unmemorable, it could have been played by any competent character actress and it was rather an insult to suggest a icon like Barbara Stanwyck consider the role.)

[–] aussiebears 16 years ago

Great post HarlowMGM and it would have been a delicious irony had Claudette Colbert had played Miriam considering All About Eve.
I do disagree about the part of Jewel Mayhew though,Mary Astor was brilliant especially in the first scene with Olivia on the street.The part of Jewel was small but still a very pivital part of the movie and it would have not been an insult to have Barbara Stanwyck to be considered for the role.

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[–] Doylenf 16 years ago

It was, as I said before, a good case of "accidental casting." But in all fairness to Joan Crawford, the role was rewritten for Olivia so that she could have "perfect manners" to begin with, before revealing her darker side. The first draft of the script had Miriam rude from the start (something Olivia objected to) and that was the Miriam that Joan Crawford would have played.

I love how Judith Crist, when reviewing the film, referred to Olivia as playing Miriam with "exquisite refinement." Except when she smashed that chair over Agnes Moorehead's head! It may have been accidental casting, but it was one of Olivia's best latter day performances.

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[–] dustinthewind25 16 years ago

I've thought it all through with all the mentioned options, and guess what - they hit the nail right on the head with deHavilland, there is NO ONE that could have pulled the part off like her.

[–] ricecakes 16 years ago

Quote: "The great thing about Olivia was that she could play the "good girl" so well that you don't suspect her at first. Then later she can play the "vile, sorry little bitch" to perfection. I don't believe that Vivien or Joan could have done that as well as Olivia did. I would have suspected either of them right off the bat. Olivia was perfect for the role."

This sums it up for me. I love Vivien Leigh and would watch her in anything, but I too would have been suspicious of her right from the start; she has that vixenish charm that Olivia did NOT possess - to her advantage! Joan Crawford - well I never could see her in any kind of sympathetic role (I don't care that she won such acclaim for Mildred Pierce, I still thought she was a wacko...LOL) so I would have had problems believing her to be well meaning and helpful.

Olivia as Miriam was brilliant.

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[–] onepotato2 16 years ago

Pretty impressive tha they got the three of them.

Davis
deHaviland
Astor

Astor is unsung, but she's good too.

[–] markedjuan 16 years ago

That comment ("I can just about look at Joan Crawford but not Bette Davis...") Vivien Leigh made when she turned down the role if Miriam has been blown out of proportion. Vivien Leigh wasn't being catty when she said that. She had said it in private, to her friend, the talent agent Roy Moseley. It was her way of saying that it wasn't in her to be competing with another star while working in a production. There was no malice in the way she said it.

Roy Moseley was also a very close friend of Bette Davis. He was also a friend of Charles Higham, who penned a biography on Bette. Much of the facts in this biography was sourced from Moseley, who also relayed what Vivien had said, to Higham. It was in Higham's book where Vivien's supposed "catty remark" was first published. And since then it has been taken out of context in other biographies.

Really, despite her illness, I don't think Vivien would say anything catty about anyone, especially Bette and her friend Joan Crawford. She was reportedly the epitome of good manners and it annoyed Brando when she'd greet him with a cheerful Good Morning everyday on the set of Street Car.

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[–] markedjuan 16 years ago

Yes, Bette was known to be frank and the public adored her for it. When Vivien Leigh said what she said about Bette, she said it to a friend whom she knew was also a confidante of Bette. She even asked Roy Moseley for Bette's address in the East Coast so she could correspond with her.

But if you really think she was being catty, then she wasn't just being catty about Bette, she was also being catty with her dear friend Joan Crawford

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[–] lastmidnite2 15 years ago

Bette played the title role and was the protagonist, so she deserved top billing mo matter who played opposite her.

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[–] markedjuan 14 years ago

I agree. Olivia was perfect as Miriam. it was like Eve Herrington all over again, with homicide added to spice up the proceedings!

Vivien Leigh couldn't have pulled it off. In fact, Leigh would actually been well cast as Charlotte. There was a bit of Blanche Dubois in Charlotte

[–] spqrclaudius 13 years ago

Leigh would have been magical, as she is in everything. But there was no way she was going to do a plantation melodrama with second billing to Bette Davis.

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[–] markedjuan 13 years ago

How many times are you going to repeat your post, Andersonwhitbeck? Bette would hardly feel threatened by any of those actresses you mentioned. And it's been on record that Vivien Leigh was never offered the role of Miriam. But had she played Miriam, she would have ruined the film. It woukd have been miscasting. She was more of the Charlotte type.

Faye Dunaway never considered suing Davis (fantasies again, Andersonwhitbeck). If she had, she ought to have sued the likes of William Holden, Warren Beatty,Anthony Harvey, Jennifer Jones and every other person who hated her when they worked with her. They all badnmouthed her too.

[–] Doylenf 13 years ago

You're so right about the repetition. The Vivien Leigh adulation is almost too much by some of her fans.

And let's not forget--Olivia de Havilland was also a two-time Academy Award winner, like Vivien Leigh and Bette Davis. She and Bette were big stars (even in 1964) and the film did do good biz at the box office thanks to an excellent cast. We can be grateful Olivia finally was persuaded by Robert Aldrich to accept the role after insisting on a few changes in how the character was originally written.

I don't think Vivien's health (getting fragile by 1964) was in good enough shape to do justice to the role the way Olivia did. Wonderful film, worth watching multiple times to appreciate the colorful dialog and gorgeous B&W photography.

"Somewhere along the line, the world has lost all of its standards and all of its taste."

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[–] markedjuan 13 years ago

Andersonwhitbeck, or Arspordsltd (as you choose to call yourself now), your casting fantasies never do end, do they? Aldrich did the right thing by not considering Vivien Leigh for Miriam. Like Crawford, she looks too much of a diva to play it sweet during the first half of the movie. So get over it once and for all.

[–] Earl-Janoth 13 years ago

Another set of ignorant delusions from MarkedJuanita the Cha-Cha Queen. Perhaps if you werent so busy suffocating yourself by probing your head deeper and deeper up Bette Davis' decaying, cancerous rectum you would manage to learn a few accurate details about the many other brilliant talents from the golden age...

Vivien Leigh was a gifted actress and could play anything from cheap floozy to high society queen bee to disturbed pedophile to Belle of the American South. It is ludicrous to suggest that she couldnt have played Miriam. She was twice the actress Davis was and many times the actress that simpering fool Olivia de Havilland was. Furthermore you say it is 'on record' that Leigh was never offered the role. What record? Please give a source for your 'facts'. If there is a 'record', where can we view it? I have read numerous times over the years that Leigh was offered the role and turned it down. She is even quoted making a rather tongue in cheek comment about the state of Davis' face and whether she could stomach looking at it every day during filming.

As for Dunaway - again, please post sources. I have only ever read Warren Beatty making positive comments about Dunaway. Where have the people you name been on your mythical 'record' badmouthing Dunaway?

[–] markedjuan 13 years ago

The trannie is stalking me now. Move on, Shane.

[–] Earl-Janoth 13 years ago

Now you know how it feels.

[–] markedjuan 13 years ago

Now somebody's talking to herself. Nobody would talk to her in the real world, right Shane?

[–] Earl-Janoth 13 years ago

LOL

[–] ELashes 12 years ago

I'd say she's spinning in her grave at the thought of being compared, even in conjecture, to old mealy-mouthed Melanie.

[–] shopguyperry 10 years ago

In her book, "This n' That", Bette said she objected to Leigh on two grounds:

1) She was BRITISH

2) She would be as temperamental as Joan Crawford.

You be the judge on whether she was right or not.

[–] markedjuan 10 years ago

I think I've said this before but Vivien Leigh would have been more of a Charlotte and less a Miriam. As Charlotte, she would have been a gothic Blanche Dubois.