overtones
Did anoyone else notice what seemed to be homosexual overtones early in the film??
shareYes, and late in the film also.
share
MovieChat Forums > Becket (1964) Discussion > overtones
Overtones!? How about a remake with Ryan Seacrest and Simon Cowell? How many times do the men declare love for one another, and the king his preference for Becket over wife and family. The King's relationship to Becket is based on the king's love for him and his need to believe Becket loved him in return. It explains why the King acted as he did. Impressive film after all these years.
shareYeah, that was my reaction- "overtones"? How about the central theme? I didn't notice it when I was a child because I didn't know what it was, but "now it's impossible to miss", as one review of the rerelease said....
[deleted]
Well, just because someone sleeps with women doesn't mean he can't also like men, or to love one man so much that it crosses the line. In the commentary Peter O'Toole says it's not gay love, it's just love. But he seemed to think that homoeroticism means acting on that love, which it doesn't. And often the person who loves isn't even as aware of his feelings as those around him are, especially when there's a huge taboo (at the time) about it....Either way, as a child I never noticed it, and as an adult it was glaringly obvious, whatever it was! :)
shareSometimes I think that we're so obsessed now with gay overtones and undertones and all kinds of tones, that we can't even admit that men could be close friends without rushing to call it sexual.
Yes, there are definitely overtones here. But if you call them the main point, and overlook the deep friendship between the two men, I think you oversimplify and miss a lot of the complexities of the relationship. That is, you risk seeing the whole thing as a lovers' quarrel (a plot that's been done to death anyway) and overlooking things like the intellectual interactions and differences that Henry talks about, the emotional bond that really does exist between friends without having to be sexual, the role of religion, and other nuances.
I'm not being very clear about this, I guess. I'm just trying to say, even though I think they were going for sexual overtones (or undertones), I get the impression that the goal was portraying a friendship with a sexual aspect to it, not the other way around.
[deleted]
Exactly! You go bhaktigirl!
shareI was thinking that too. Henry's constant declarations of love for Thomas Becket does sound kind of gay but it could have just been brotherly love. However, one scene that made me wonder was near the end. Henry II is moaning about his love for Becket yet again and his wife slams her hand on the table yelling "It was always Becket!"
I saw The Lion in Winter a long time ago and remember Eleanor taunting Henry about Thomas Becket in a suggestive way. At the time I thought she was implying that she had an affair with Becket but now I wonder if she was actually accusing Henry of doing so.
Eleanor in TLIW clearly indicates, in order to torment Henry, that *she* slept with Becket. If she believes Henry did it would make her insinuation that much more cruel, and be entirely in keeping with the way TLIW depicts Henry and Eleanor's relationship, but it goes unsaid.
____________________________
"An inglorious peace is better than a dishonourable war" ~ John Adams
Considering that one of the first scenes in the film is Henry with a young girl, and that a big part of their conflict was a dispute over a woman, I'd have to say no.
There seems to be a certain contingent of people on IMDB who have this need to find hidden homosexual overtones in every movie that involves friendship between two men. It says more about people's obsessions than it does about the films.
[deleted]
Hm. While I hardly think that two men can't love each other, and say as much, without it being gay....I have to say I believe there was more than just friendship here. At least, from Henry's side of thing. Becket's relationship with Henry struck me as more of that of a shepard, to coin their own analogy; Henry needed him there to guide him on his path as both king and a person, and Henry was obviously quite lost in thie regard without him. Henry on the otherhand, loved him in a way that was quite deeper than that: he was entirely dependant on Becket. Whether Henry himself ever realized it was a love deeper than friendship or not is questionable. But it was undoubtedly so; I was certain of this when his wife lashed out "Becket Becket, it's always about Becket!" and quite blatantly insinuated that he loved the man in a way that he should have loved her.
That said, I should point out that it was never a sexaul thing. Henry got his phyiscal love from his various female conquests. But the emotional love he gave and so painfully desired to get in return was for Becket. So despite O'Toole's own words and our societies current desposition to find homosexuality in every male relationship, I believe that it was the case here, only one-sided. An unrequited love and the consequences of it.
Almost! But not quite.
Henry's love for Becket was based on the fact that Becket served the King at his own pleasure, not out of some desire for advancement.
Thomas was always honest with Henry, even if it meant angering his King. Henry knew that Thomas' loyalty was absolute and to the man, not the office.
The same could not be said about anyone else in Henry's life.
His Wife - "Look at me! I am a Queen, I am a Woman. I'll protest to my father, I'll protest to Rome, I'll protest to God!" - note queen before woman, protest to positions of power, before asking God.
His Son - "Which one are you?" "Henry the Third" - not Henry, or your eldest, but again... the position he would one day hold.
The problem toward then end, was that once Thomas was invested as Archbishop, his duty and honour now served the Church and not the King. Thomas knew this would be the case, which is why he begged Henry not to make him Archbishop. Henry believed Thomas' loyalty to him would take precedence over anything else, and felt betrayed when Thomas gave his loyalty to God and bound his honour to the Church.
If this is Hell, chain me to the wall! - Nick Gautier