MovieChat Forums > Becket (1964) Discussion > Becket. martyr or fool

Becket. martyr or fool


Becket was one of the first movies I saw about the "honor of God". I never fully appreciated that until this day, even though my conformation name was Thomas a'Becket. Thomas's ideals even to this day would stand out. Service to the poor, to the lonely and those without a voice. Becket would be against abortion, just as much as he would be against 10% of Americans leaving the other 90% with no hope.
Becket was a martyr,yet I guess a lot of self centered persons would think him a fool.
I guess I wish it was otherwise. Yes,it is after all a movie. Yet one time ago, a man lived who said you have worth. That was the same thing Christ said 1000 years earlier, and for that they killed him. I guess nothing ever changes.

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It depends on your individual ideals where ever you see Becket as a martyr or a fool. Personally I agree with your opinion of him being a martyr, he was immensely brave in excepting his fate as at first he held the upper hand. He could have easily barricaded himself in the Catherdral and made an attempt to flee from Henry's men but Becket stood his ground even if he was not going to defend himself. Therefore earning more respect than he ever could of if he tried to flee.

"I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not".

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He was a fool at the end.He was also a traitor.The King was entirely in the right in wanting the clergy to be tried like other offenders rather than given special courts of their own.

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Even if it's true the clergy should have been tried "like other offenders", does it make Becket "a fool" for being true to the church's (HIS church's) position on the matter?

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Henry II did not and could not have Becket legally executed. A few centuries later, his descendant Henry VIII changed all the rules by taking over the Church in England; when More objected, the King executed him with no qualms whatsoever. Henry II, however, was constrained by the power of the church in his day as well as by his own conscience and it was only upon overhearing Henry in his fit of histrionics and hyperbole that Beckect's murderers acted, not with any legal empowerment or moral sense of duty, but solely on their opportunistic motives and belief that their king would reward them for killing Becket.

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Becket is perhaps the prime example of those who were once "best buds" and political cronies with the person or persons responsible (Henry II, in this case) for getting him the position in the first place (more modern examples being FDR, backed by Tammany Hall, later turns on them; JFK sicking brother Bobby on the Mob after they served their purpose in helping Jack get elected; and so on).

Sometimes these guys start out being cynical, if not somewhat corrupt; but once they soak in the reality of being in their office or appointed position, they go into "epiphany mode" and actually begin to take the office seriously, until they are no longer the same "good ol' boys" they'd been before attaining office and usually end up going to war with the very ones responsible for putting them there!

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Dear Vinidici:

Please I think you maybe tainted by thinking 20-21st century and not 1170. He , Becket knew that to serve God's honor was pure and absolute. HE felt to the other English Bishops that compromise to satisfy a monarch was to dilute the church as we knew it, you must roll up your seeves and pickup holy Mother church to save her from Men, corrupt men, whom would change canon law to suit their own selfish ends. In this canon law must be absolute!

Yeah I studied a bit of Canon Law and tons of HX!

Becket knew his martydom was only a matter of time and it would galvanize the English Monarch to reaccept the respect of the church.


Remember this is the 12th century.

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You misunderstood me, molarmama. Becket was not the same man as he had been before becoming Bishop of Canterbury. He was a man of the world and quite politically savvy and most definitely a close crony with Henry. Imagine Henry's surprise and chagrin when Becket truly changed and became the very kind of high-principled man you're talking about after his ordination to the office.

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Dear vinidici:

Thank you for your excellent response. I had reviewed the film since my last posting. I believe that we are on the same page here; just limited by this damned cyber link. This would make for a great discussion over coffee.

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I think vinidici's point about the change in Becket and Henry's reactions to it is the kernel of the play/movie. Nice discussion both of you. Like to be a fly on the wall when you get together over that coffee.

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Hey, I'm all about coffee! And chatting and analyzing British history over coffee! And coffee, too! (Did I mention that I happen to like coffee?)
Meet me at Starbucks, right over there on the corner!

See ya around, molarmama!

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Dearest vinidici:

If COFFEE is involved, I am there, also. Which corner?

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You're right, but I have an issue with this. I think back in those times, the clergy and church had a place next to God. Their sense of morality was seen as superior to others'. Therefore, even if the clergy did something wrong, killing and convicting him was to be seen as an act against God than a rebellion to "correct" a silly tradition. I do not know for sure, but my hunch is it is this "encroachment" of Henry that Becket was against. It was as if he's suggesting he's superior to God - (So it had stopped being about the clergy doing something nasty and him being punished for it; and became King vs. God. This was a huge blasphemy for the period, understandably). So I cannot quite take a stance and say, Henry was on the right side.

As for the OP's question - certainly a martyr because in many instances, Becket come out as a man of God's honour; a man who stood by his role in all sincerity. He did just as an exemplary job as the Bishop as he did as a chancellor. He was the most intelligent & complete man in the Kingdom as Henry II himself put it at one point. Never a fool for me.

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It's important to point out that monarchs (and other governments) throughout Christian history has always tried to usurp fundamental authority from the Church. After all, the Church was the main direct check against monarchical authority.

Because, back in those days, all Catholic monarchs were crowned either by the Pope or his bishops. This is significant because being a king was not merely a temporal, secular title, but it was also a bit of a religious vocation, just as being a monk or a nun, or being married is considered a religious vocation. You are taking vows to God, and are responsible for your kingdom and your subjects, and you will be held doubly account for this, just as a priest would be for the attendance of his parish and flock. In other words, you are king because God allowed you to be king.

Notice, I didn't say power. Authority and power are two different things. Authority is merely the right to say what ought to be done. Power is the ability to get it done. Kings, really, didn't have as much power as modern people today think. Power was widely diffused, much more widely than it is in so-called "republics" today where it is concentrated in a certain group of people. Authority in western republics has been widely diffused, through the process of voting, so that those in power are rarely held to account for what they do, because of a strange concept known as the Consent of the Governed.

Under the 4th Commandment, Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother, this also includes anyone in a position of legitimate authority. Therefore, if you were a Catholic subject, you were obligated to obey the sovereign and his appointed ministers, as a religious duty. However, neither he nor his ministers could ever order you to do anything that disobeyed God's Law. After all, God outranks everyone. If a monarch or a nobleman flagrantly or routinely violated God's Law, and made no act of contrition or atonement for it, he could be excommunicated. If that happened, the subjects would not be obliged to obey the sovereign while excommunicate.

This was what was at stake with Henry and St. Thomas. Henry believed that by appointing someone who would be beholden to the crown, he would be shielded from clerical accountability from the Pope and the bishops for any indiscretions. This is why kings and emperors throughout Christendom fought tooth and nail to secure the power to appoint their own bishops (known as Investiture). This is what was at issue between Rome and Constantinople, leading to the Great Schism between the East and Western Churches; the Byzantine Emperors wanted priests to bless whatever they wanted, regardless of what the Church taught, to further undermine Church and Papal authority.

Henry VIII would eventually achieve what no other English monarch had been able to do. By separating from the Church, and forming his own with himself as head of it (known as the Anglican Church), he now had nobody to contest his authority on any decision he made, leading to a bloody persecution of his Catholic subjects: All so that he could divorce his actual wife, Queen Catharine of Aragon.

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A Martyred Saint to many non-Catholics as well.

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The "Principle" he died for is the reason the Catholic Church protects Sex Offenders.

"When the chips are down... these Civilized people... will Eat each Other"

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MO 33:

Or whom ever you are this week, sock.

That remark was uncalled and prejudicial to this discussion.

You NOW DISGUST ME!

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Why? He has a point.

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http://viverdecinema.blogspot.com.br/

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Oh, I thought you were asking a serious question. I didn't realise you merely wished to pontificate.

For what it's worth, he was a fool.

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No one here has mentioned that Becket escaped to France earlier for six years where he met his sovereign. He had had his fill of running away. Eventually Becket returned to Canterbury only to meet his fate at the hands of three or four knights who considered they were doing Henry's bidding. Most English school children learn this in Primary school as I did.

There are credible witnesses to Becket's execution at Canterbury. Unarmed priests could do little or nothing to save him. At best they could bear witness afterwards as to what had happened. Thus Becket's martyrdom was confirmed only a few years later. And what is remarkable is that his story is remembered over 800 years later.

Incidentally, a couple of days ago BBC-Radio 4 noted that it was the anniversary of Becket's murder by four knights at Canterbury. He is not forgotten.

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