don't anyone get me wrong i'm not advocating replacing Rays brilliant animation,dynamation with cgi etc [that would be sacrilage] but better compositing of the creatures into the foreground with the actors and wire removal on things like the Harpies in Jason and Earth Vs the flying saucers etc would i think really improve the picture without changing Rays work [as well as picture and sound clean up].
Journey To The Centre of the Earth 3D is complete and utter..mediocre trash!
Well, I am one who is against tampering with any movie. HOWEVER, Ray Harryhausen himself as done just that with his own films. Sinister, I get what you mean about the touch-ups and to me that actually isn't so bad when you compare it to when Ray went on and decided to colorize his b/w films! Color just made everything look rather unnatural (skin tones being the biggest faults). Touch-ups maybe. Colorization, never!
Well, I am one who is against tampering with any movie. HOWEVER, Ray Harryhausen himself as done just that with his own films. Sinister, I get what you mean about the touch-ups and to me that actually isn't so bad when you compare it to when Ray went on and decided to colorize his b/w films! Color just made everything look rather unnatural (skin tones being the biggest faults). Touch-ups maybe. Colorization, never!
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I'm glad to see a sensible reply instead of cries of sacrilage being thrown at me. what i'm suggesting only brings out the best of Rays work and doesn't really alter it. i think the only thing that spoils these films for me is things like the compositing and visible wires etc. if you watch Mysterious Island for instance the animation of the crab is superb but the compositing of the crab in with the actors in some shots looks pretty bad now, same with the Roc in Seventh Voyage. I really think it would be worth enhancing all of these films like this to bring out the best in them as the actual films still stand up fairly well.
Journey To The Centre of the Earth 3D is complete and utter..mediocre trash!
When I listened to the commentaries on the "colorized" IT CAME FROM BENEATH THE SEA. it was obvious that Harryhausen had little (or nothing) to do with the colorization. When the giant octopus first raised a stop-motion tentacle, Ray exclaimed..."It's....GREEN!"
I was obvious that he in no shape or form suggested to the colorizers that the octopus was green, and since the giant octopus was arguably the ONLY reason to see the film, you would think he would have something to say about that, but NO, he just sat there through the movie, moaning every time we see the green cephalopod,..."But....it's GREEN!"
Because green is a crummy base color for that type of animal anyway, (a reddish brown or brownish gray would've been more realistic) and the guys on the commentary track tried in vain to calm Harryhausen by saying things like, "Well, Ray, you know an octopus changes color so...."
"But...GREEN?" he would respond.
So it was obvious that he signed something and picked up a check, but did not supervise anything via the colorization or why would he say such things on the commentary?!?
These people also colorized The Ymir and made him green too!!!! It is quite clear that these colorists have a limited horizon because they think monster = green.
Also colorizing the monster puppets make them look artificial. Maybe they could be more realistic if they were colorized with realism in mind...(The ymir, as a puppet, was gray with orange trim. It was green only on the poster.)
Yes, Ray Harryhausen tampered with his films...BUT HE DIDN"T TAMPER ENOUGH! LOL
If I recall, I believe the wires in the 1953 WAR OF THE WORLDS were digitally removed for the special edition DVD that was released in 2005 (again, I don't know. I'll have to check).
And I would be hypocritical in saying that "enhancements would be tampering Ray's work", when as I said before, Ray himself, colorized his own b/w films! If one day, they were to do enhancements, I hope it will look like it was part of the natural filmmaking process and not something that will stick out uncomfortably, like Lucas did with his STAR WARS features.
I have the special edition of "war of the Worlds", and the wires are visible. They explained on the audio commentary that when the film was released, the wires could not be seen. No one could see the wires until the 1980s. You see, in the 1980s, they re-transfered the original negative to Eastmancolor film, which was much sharper than the Technicolor film they had transferred it to back in 1953. Thus, wires that were once blurred out became visible. That's part of the reason I would like to see the wires removed: they were not visible on the original release.
Courage, men! We've not sunk before, and we'll not sink now!
I saw War of the Worlds as an eleven year-old in 1963 (I believe it was the film's tenth anniversary or something), in the theater, and on the big screen the wires were very visible. I was used to watching special effects with wires and I didn't care because I was having fun with the movie on the big screen.
I saw the movie a few years later on one of the movie-of-the-week programs and the wires were visible on tv too, so this commentary that said the wires could not be seen is bogus.
The wires WERE visible on the original film in '63 and on tv shortly after that, so this transfer nonsense in 1980 about revisualizing the wires is not true based on my own experience.
Somehow, wires, matte lines, reflections in glass paintings, make these films more fun for me in an interactive way. It's like finding a buried treasure...."LOOK! A surface gauge in the BLACK SCORPION!!!!" :)
You'll please excuse me, but I grew up in an age where Special Visual Effects LOOKED slightly artificial because that's what they were....artificial set ups trying to be something they weren't.
Today you have to make every special effects set piece "hyper-real" because the kids don't want to see anything unless it looks totally flawless.
Dynamation is dead....long live Dynamation.
(Oh, and leave the friggin' wires in...let the little brats watch Pixar movies.
I saw the movie a few years later on one of the movie-of-the-week programs and the wires were visible on tv too, so this commentary that said the wires could not be seen is bogus.
I don't know. It was a commentary with Ann Robinson and Gene Barry. From what they said, the three-color imbibition prints they made of Technicolor movies back then turned out a little blurry, and blurred the wires out. Later on, when better, clearer prints were made of the original negative, the picture was clearer, thus making the wires visible.
I also remember that on the audio commentary for "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" (1971) featuring the original actors who played the children, they mentioned that originally, in the scene where Mike Teevee is inside the television, the stage he was standing on was invisible, as it was blurred out on theater screens, making it look like he was really hovering in a black void. They said that that the stage didn't become visible until years later.
Dynamation is dead.
Tim Burton still uses stop-motion. The stop-motion in "Corpse Bride" is some of the best I've ever seen. He's currently making a stop-motion version of "The Addamms Family", which will take four years to complete.
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As far as the wires go, I saw what I saw...if the printing was a little blurry it was not blurry enough to keep the wires from being very visible especially in scenes in miniature sets...the blue screen traveling matte shots had no wires because they'd just matte out.
Don't confuse "Dynamation" with stop motion. Dyanamation is deader than a doornail simply because miniature rear projections and matted over foregrounds tend to look grainy (Green screen is way better and is in use for composites now). As a process it has been dead for years and years. Dynamation uses stop motion to represent the monsters but is basically a split screen process that allows the animator to "drop" the puppet into the shot, although this was briefly changed in FIRST MEN IN THE MOON because Schneer and Columbia were adamant that Panavision be used which did not conform to Harryhausen's technique.
Ray himself called the films Like James and the Giant Peach as well as Nightmare Before Christmas, "Puppet films" and has said over and over that they have nothing to do with Dynamation. His words not mine.
Stop motion is a viable special effect, but it's hard to convince those who have been raised on CGI that it is effective in anything that is supposed to be REAL. The stop motion in tv commercials and in the films like Corpse Bride is marvelous. But the character designs are caricatures and are not supposed to be realistic....like the Hydra in JASON.
The last released movies I can think of that used Dynamation techniques were, CAVE MAN, Q, THE WINGED SERPENT, and CLASH OF THE TITANS. And there were many Charlie Band produced films in which Dave Allen and Chris Endicott used Dynamation techniques in the mid nineties....but since then it's been computers all the way.
Personally I think stop motion is a much more difficult technique, and when done by, say Jim Danforth in WHEN DINOSAURS RULED THE EARTH, it's just as good if not better than some of the CGI stuff nowadays.
I love stop motion combined with live action because it is more of an art form (and more difficult to do) while CGI seems more of a corporate machination.
I don't mean to be condescending and I apologize if I come off sounding that way, but stop motion is not Dynamation unless it is designed to be inserted into a live action set piece in a certain way. Dynamation died the day Steven Speilberg told Dennis Muren that he didn't want the camera to be locked down. Keeping the camera locked down was a staple of Dynamation.
Ah, I see. Yeah, I doubt that Dynamation has much of a chance of coming back, then.
As for CGI, I have nothing against it, either. It's a very good tool, and can be used very well. It worked very well for movies such "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow", "Jurassic Park", "Spiderman 2", and "The Lord of the Rings".
I remember Ray Harryhausen saying that he thinks they should leave CGI looking a little fake, instead of perfectly real. He said that when you can tell it's not real, that adds to the spectacular effect, whereas perfect realism looks mundane. I'm not quite sure that I entirely agree with him, as realistic effects can look good too, but I do believe that some things should look a little stylized.
Courage, men! We've not sunk before, and we'll not sink now!
For example, look at how non realistic the effects are in THE WIZARD OF OZ but they were intentionally designed that way, to look like a story book come to life. People who see that film today and complain that the distant shots of the Emerald city look "fake" and "like a painting" well, they miss the point entirely.
And I still think that the Medusa sequence in the original Clash of the Titans is much better than the remake Medusa.
The remake of the Medusa sequence is a problem I have with a lot of CGI set pieces....things move just because you can make them move.
In Harryhausen's world, things move when they NEED to.
And besides, Ray's Medusa is bare breasted and the new Medusa wears a bra.
I'll take Dynamation topless over CGI bathing suit any day! LOL
As I said, though, not everything has to look stylized, some effects look good when they are realistic. "Jurassic Park" (which was part go-motion, part CGI, and part full-scale models) is a good example. That said, making something look stylized can add to the spectacular effect, as the effect sticks out and grabs the audience's attention, instead of blending in and looking real. This can work well with both traditional effects ("The Wizard of Oz", "King Kong", etc) and CGI ("Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow", etc).
Although I do like old-fashioned types of effects, such as stop-motion, I think CGI is a good tool to have as well. And I wouldn't dismiss it as being lazy either. A lot of hard work goes into making CGI. I remember the visual effects artists on "King Kong" (2005) talking about how they spent so much time and hard work building a CGI replica of 1930s New York, street by street, building by building, that they get confused when going to the real New York city because things look so different from the way they did in the 1930s version of the city they spent so much time in.
It took a lot of hard to work for him to create the short. He said in an interview:
I knew I could do it if I just stuck it out. But yeah, along the way, there were nights where I was in the fetal position underneath the desk wondering why I had ever started this.
Of course, he was doing it by himself, on a slow computer, but when he was finally made director of a full-length feature version "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow", it still took a lot of work. Although shooting the footage of the actors took less than a month, creating the CGI backgrounds took several years of hard work, even though they had professional equipment.
Courage, men! We've not sunk before, and we'll not sink now!
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In regards to Ray Harryhausen colorizing his films, for me, it wasn’t so much on the amount he supervised, (or none of it at all) but rather, that he agreed to do it in the first place. In my book, that is still a form of tampering. And of course, you have other movies that supposedly Ray had some kind of hand in for colorization, namely THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME, SHE, and THINGS TO COME.
There is always two sides of me arguing with this issue. On one hand, I don’t like tampering with any film. On the other hand, if they have the technology fix up minor blemishes like improving green screen shots (like they did with THE AFRICAN QUEEN), I’m not entirely against it. Of course, there is always that fear of going George Lucas crazy!
And I also heard the Harryhausen commentary on IT CAME FROM BENEATH THE SEA, and yeah, he was extraordinary surprised at the green color! I have all three of the Harryhausen “color” movies, but only because it also came in with the best b/w prints I have ever seen!
If I recall, I believe the wires in the 1953 WAR OF THE WORLDS were digitally removed for the special edition DVD that was released in 2005 (again, I don't know. I'll have to check).
And I would be hypocritical in saying that "enhancements would be tampering Ray's work", when as I said before, Ray himself, colorized his own b/w films! If one day, they were to do enhancements, I hope it will look like it was part of the natural filmmaking process and not something that will stick out uncomfortably, like Lucas did with his STAR WARS features.
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unfortunately George Lucas gave enhancements to older films a bad name by going over the top [altering the plot and sticking unecessary cgi]. Hope fully people are starting to see beyond that now.
Journey To The Centre of the Earth 3D is complete and utter..mediocre trash!
I just bought THE AFRICAN QUEEN DVD, which has been newly restored. If one recalls that movie, there were a lot of process shots, meaning you have the actors standing in front of a green screen (or blue screen sometimes) acting out their scenes and during post-production, that background would then be replaced by a live-action shot. The problem with so many process shots back in the day, was that you could actually see a green (or blue) outline on the actors, meaning that they couldn't matte out the color all together.
In this new print, what they did was digitally remove those outlines thus making these process shots much more in sync (they talk about this on the special features). It is enhancements such as those that I have no problems whatsoever.
I just bought THE AFRICAN QUEEN DVD, which has been newly restored. If one recalls that movie, there were a lot of process shots, meaning you have the actors standing in front of a green screen (or blue screen sometimes) acting out their scenes and during post-production, that background would then be replaced by a live-action shot. The problem with so many process shots back in the day, was that you could actually see a green (or blue) outline on the actors, meaning that they couldn't matte out the color all together.
In this new print, what they did was digitally remove those outlines thus making these process shots much more in sync (they talk about this on the special features). It is enhancements such as those that I have no problems whatsoever.
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Yes things like that can alter old films for the better.
This may sound ridiculous but I think a great enhancement to Mr. Harryhausen's films is when they release a new edition they should NOT include discussion on how it's made. It just ruins the 'mystery' from my perspective. But also I guess viewers what to know everything even if it is a fantasy picture. Perhaps it gets them closer to the film I'm not sure.
Now I've watched Jason and the Argonauts for many years and it still holds that magic wonder for me since I have been kid in the movie house. The film I think is so inculcated in my psyche that it must operate unconsciously with me. I guess I don't want to mess with it by knowing 'everything' about it. I'm letting sleeping skeletons lie..;-)....
Wire removal is one technical fix I have no problem with when these old films are being restored, because you know that if at all possible the creators would NOT have wanted the wires to show. The removal of early blue-screen "halos" is fine by me too, because the fringe effect can be extremely distracting.
However, regarding any additional clean-up of these old Harryhausen pictures.... I think it's problematic. I'm not at all sure there's too much more that can be done to make the composite shots look better. Far as I can see, you'd have to have access to all the original film elements, all the layers, to do a new composite and I doubt that this footage was saved. I'm guessing that all that's left are negatives and prints containing the completed, composited image---and there's not too much you can do with that to make it look more naturalistic.