Lesbian Subplot - The Haunting (1963) Discussion

[–] gayspiritwarrior 20 years ago

Not a full-fledged subplot. Theo is a lesbian, and is attracted to Eleanor. Robert Wise says in the commentary that he shot a scene of Theo breaking up with a lover before she comes to Hill House; but it turned out the two women conveyed the sexual tension so well they didn't need the scene after all.

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[–] Citizen_Braaaains 20 years ago

If only they had expanded on the lesbian subplot in the remake. Then it would at least have that for its namesake. Now the only reason to watch it is to laugh at how inferior everything in it is and how much it tries to be supieror.

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[–] TheBreadGirl 19 years ago

And I'm sure you've never read the book, which means you can't even begin to understand what the movie is about.

"Hill House, not sane, stood by itself for eighty years and might stand for eighty more."

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[–] shoblock1 16 years ago

by that reasoning, if you've never watched the movie, you can't even begin to understand what the book is about.

the movie stands on it's own, as a movie.

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[–] spirit_30 10 years ago

That's 90 years ... not 80 ...

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[–] denise1234 14 years ago

Citizen Braaaains^

This movie is a wonderful example of the use of the ambiguous supernatural (except for the cheat at the very end).

The Innocents is another movie that utilizes the ambiguous supernatural.

Too bad you could not appreciate The Haunting.

And, I disagree somewhat that a movie has to stand on its own (other post).

Sometimes a movie is good (on its own), but can be a much better viewing experience if the viewer reads the book and is less ignorant about sub-themes and subtleties that easily may be missed by the more mainstream and lesser-informed viewer.

Cheers, denise1234

"I can't stand a naked light bulb, any more than..a rude remark or a vulgar action" Blanche DuBois

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[–] randy605 9 years ago

Please tell me where this commentary is? I've searched all the available DVD versions of this movie including the BluRay from 2013 and none of them mention any commentary. I don't want to order the wrong DVD. But reviewers and now you mention a commentary with the actors and Robert Wise. I'm desperate to see if its still available. Thanks so much

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[–] gayspiritwarrior 9 years ago

It was on the DVD copy I got from Netflix. I have my own copy now, and the cover is different from the one showing on Netflix, and mine doesn't have the commentary either.

The value of an idea has nothing whatsoever to do with the sincerity of the man who expresses it.-Oscar Wilde

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[–] TerminalMadness 19 years ago

IT's more suggestive this time around. Theo follows Eleanor has some tender moments that are somewhat flirtatious and at one point Theo leans in for to kiss her but is interrupted by the ghost.

CINEMA CRAZED:
http://www.cinema-crazed.com/

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] kpocala 14 years ago

Elenor makes a remark about Theo being "un-natural", went over my head for a few dozen viewings. Reading the novel didn't hurt either ;)

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[–] ErinXHavok85 19 years ago

I think Theo is bi and not a lesbian. Because in the original movie Eleanor asks her what she's afriand of and she says, "Knowing what I really want." A theory as to why people are bi-sexual is that they are confused about their sexuality. Being bi-sexual may be just a step in deciding what you really want.

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[–] numberone_1 19 years ago

If you see this a few times you do get a stronger sense of the lesbian subplot. Theo mentions how she lives with someone, and Nell asks if she's married, to which she replies "no". Also, Nell throws a tantrum calling Theo "unnatural" and such.

Similar subtleties in The Birds between Suzanne Pleshette and Tippi Hedren.

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[–] Kumquat66 19 years ago

I have seen this movie several times and the lesbian element never hit me until the last time I saw it. I never really understood the accusation of being unnatural until the last viewing. Before, I thought she was referring to the fact that Theo had supernatural abilities.

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[–] docpeach 19 years ago

I saw this movie soooo many years ago and picked up on the subplot right away. When Theo and Nell were talking about their homes and Theo would say how "we" were decorating and things that we picked out together and not clearly saying my husband. In those days it would have been unacceptable to even say she was living with a boyfriend but living with a "lady friend" was OK. Kind of like two women who just shared living space. In the remake, which I thought was terrible, Theo was very obviously Bisexual.

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[–] gelfo-1 19 years ago

I really really think that is what she's referring to..

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[–] SliverScreen 18 years ago

I think the unnatural comment could be both in regard to Theo's sexuality, as well as her psychic abilities.

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[–] user-38 19 years ago

numberone_1: Yes, I'd picked up on the sexual tension when I saw it before and had suspected that jealousy was behind Theo's snarkiness about Nell's crush on the doctor, but I didn't notice the "unnatural" speech until I saw it again last night. I suspect it would have been a lot more obvious to audiences in the early 60's when people avoided words like "lesbian" in polite society and spoke of "deviance" or "unnaturalness" instead.

ErinXHavok85: Maybe "what I really want" refers not to women in general, but to Nell in particular. Theo's afraid to recognize the strength of her feelings because she knows there's no chance they'll be reciprocated or because she'd have to tell Nell how she felt, thus outing herself. (Being suspected of "unnaturualness" would have been bad enough. Admitting to it could be fatal.) That would also explain why she's often so cruel to Nell. Like a closeted homophobe, she's giving vent to her repressed desires by pouring anger and contempt on the one who inspires them.

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[–] Werbal_Kint 18 years ago

Theo's mocking of Nell's attraction to the doctor is the most obvious clue for me. From the time the two meet, Theo is constantly seeking the attention of Nell and soon becomes jealous when she realizes who Nell is REALLY interested in. That's why they start out generally friendly but grow increasingly hostile toward each other as the film progresses,

I hadn't picked up on the "unnatural" comments, though. It's a clever disguise for what Nell really means. Weren't MEANT to think she mean's Theo's ESP, but really, she doesn't HAVE ESP, she's just perceptive. Her "psychic abilities" are a great red herring for what's really going on between the two women.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] bayphatt 16 years ago

i could care less. im not into the whole "gay" thing, ya know, cuz im straight and its weird

I never heard a guy say that when it comes to two feminine lesbians.

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[–] SliverScreen 18 years ago

I think in the original version, Theo is most definitely out and not afraid of letting her intentions be known. I don't think she was a closeted homophobe at all.

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[–] bruce-campbell 14 years ago

The sexual tension throughout this whole film is pretty obvious to me. There's even some very interesting mise en scene with Luke and the Doctor in front of the nursery door, after the women go back to their room.

The switching of attractions between all 4 main characters throughout the film, while subtle, is definitely there, and not by chance. The director would be the only one to move the film in such a direction, and the lines contain the core of it, though actors, under an otherwise uninterested director, would not make the thrust so obvious, not to say too obvious.

I think this was very risqué stuff at the time, and I certainly wouldn't have got the now subtlely obvious references 20 years ago. As our society becomes more transparent, and we can get over the shock/taboos at even acknowledging the fringes of society, people have become more aware of the subtle language that members of suppressed sub-cultures use to communicate with one another, often without awareness by members of more homogenized majorities. Would you recognize many of the terms used in Harlem in the 1960s? Not unless someone had helped educate you, if you were white, middle-class, and lived in segregation. In the 1960s in much of Canada, most people had never seen a black person.

The fact is that even today many, many people still find the concept of open discussion of sexuality of any description uncomfortable. That is my best guess for the prime reason people might miss the chemistry among any group, regardless of mix. The discussions between director and cast would have been very interesting, and not a little shocking to the straight world.

In addition to believing this film to be intentionally subversive, I suspect that The Haunting was prime source material for The Rocky Horror Picture Show, and that Mrs. Dudley was the model that Cloris Leachman so brilliantly did up as Frau Blücher in Young Frankenstein. I also thought at one point it reminded me of Clue, the game, not the movie. But then one's a derivative of a derivative.

This movie is an absolute gem, with a fantastic little kitsch-sex plot going on, and really broad performances, yet campy at the same time. I also greatly appreciated seeing actors with wrinkles, which really help a dramatic performance if lit well. If this hasn't had the MST3K treatment, it should. And please don't think that means I think it's bad. It's actually very, very good, but in a bad, then good kind of way.

Oh and I had to do a little bit of work to stop thinking of Russ Tamblyn as Riff, dance-fighting his way through the ghosts… and wasn't that hallway, the first time it was shot, over the shoulders of Nell & Theo, remind anyone else of a Scooby-Doo hallway?

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[–] GunHillTrain 14 years ago

I’ve been working on a piece of fan fiction, a screenplay that is sort of an alternative to the 1999 version, that explores how the sexual tensions between Eleanor and Theo would play out in a more recent era. One of my premises is that both of them would be much less inhibited about expressing what they’re really thinking.

The real 1999 movie seemed to start out in this direction but then dropped that in favor of a spectacle of computer-generated demons running rampant. But, that obviously didn’t work. I preferred to show how Eleanor relates to the other people in the house (and I gave her a sense of humor, which she seems to lack in previous versions).

I didn’t try to duplicate what was in the novel or the ’63 movie. I just used those as a starting point, and revealed some new aspects about the characters - including, yes, the Dudleys, and also Arthur Parker, who was in the book but not the films.

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[–] TheBreadGirl 19 years ago

Yeah, I got the impression that she was a lesbian when Eleanor called her "nature's mistake," but then I wondered if she was referring to Theo's psychic powers. I don't know, it's a bit ambiguous and could be argued either way.

"Hill House, not sane, stood by itself for eighty years and might stand for eighty more."

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[–] fuchsiasattic 14 years ago

Yeah...a lot of it seemed really subtle. I think the actors did a great job with making it pretty clear without shouting "Theo's a lesbian/bisexual!" at us...probably cause that would be have made for a strange moment in a haunted house film...lol.
But I got the same feeling from the scene where Nell is calling Theo a mistake or something to that effect, and Theo asks what she means and Nell says something like "You know what I mean," and there's an awkward silence afterward. I they were all so open about Theo's psychic abilities that Nell could have just said it.

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[–] fembuck 17 years ago

//Similar subtleties in The Birds between Suzanne Pleshette and Tippi Hedren.//

Thank you! Hardly anyone I've talked to about The Birds picked up on this, and I was beginning to think that I was just projecting or something ;)

----------------
Phoebe: "Can I call you Suzy, because I can't say that name?"

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[–] turtletommy 17 years ago

Hmmm that example seems a bit of a stretch to me. There seemed to be more of a coldness between those two due to the old girlfriend-new girlfriend dynamic. So what kind of stuff is going on between them that makes you think there are lesbian undercurrents? Are there any hints given in the novel that the film is based on?
Maybe I'm blinded to seeing any of this because as a male I thought Pleshette looked stunning in the film and was about 10,000 times sexier than Hedren! The birds got the wrong one. (<:

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[–] mrsbookbabe 15 years ago

Yes you are projecting! There is nothing there to "pick up on".

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[–] Glennascaul 15 years ago

Sorry to come to this conversation so late. My apologies for not making the information clearer in the "Alternate Versions" section. It was me who posted the info back in 2003 (the screening was actually in Scotland, not England as some posters have incorrectly stated). I guess I just didn't think to put in the fact that Theo's lover was a woman as I always thought it had been obvious from the release version. But yes, the lover was a woman.

And here I sit, 7 years later, waiting to see if this version will ever see the light of day on a home video release.

I e-mailed the BFI at the time to enquire about this print as I remember Robert Wise commenting on whether or not any of it still existed.

This was the BFI reply:

"I have spoken to staff at the archive who were involved in making our print of THE HAUNTING to get the full story. Apparently, while doing some work on our previous viewing print, which was rather battered, it was discovered that we had a slightly different version of the film which had been donated to us in the 1970s. It was this material which was copied to make the viewing print which you saw.

As my colleague remarked, this print has been shown many times over the last 20 years so we haven't been hiding it away. The mystery is really why the filmmakers didn't come to the National Film and Television Archive, the government recognised repository of British moving image culture, to enquire what material we are holding!

I hope this answers your questions. Do contact me if you have any further queries."

I don't even know if it would still be there...

Anyway, hope this helps a little.

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[–] PaulDForrestLA 16 years ago

Theo's preferences are never expicitly stated, neither in the book nor in the 1963 movie. There are some broad hints (i.e., Nell's "nature's mistakes" dart and "Are you married?" "No." Plus her reaction to Luke's attempt at flirting.) Even in the book, Theo answered Marquay's ad after a big fight with her roommate, but no details about the nature of this roommate.

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[–] CosyCatNap 16 years ago

Interesting remark about the book. In the Italian version the generic "friend" is translated into "amica", a female noun.

But I have love in my heart - Yes, as a thief has riches, a usurer money

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[–] jfitzpatrick3 16 years ago

Keep in mind Theo's reaction to the touch by the young man: "Keep your hands to yourself" He replies that "there is more here than meets the eye" giving you a possible indication that Theo's lesbianism might be due to an aversion/bad expereince/abuse she has had with men.

"At the end of life, we will be judged by love" ST John of the Cross

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[–] MiCharlie124 15 years ago

"Keep in mind Theo's reaction to the touch by the young man: "Keep your hands to yourself" He replies that "there is more here than meets the eye" giving you a possible indication that Theo's lesbianism might be due to an aversion/bad expereince/abuse she has had with men."

When he says this, his glance goes from Theo to Nell and it seems that it dawns on him that perhaps Theo has other tendencies.

When it is suggested that Theo share Nell's room, Theo is very happy to do so; Nell objects, arguing that she's never had a room of her own.

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[–] mrsbookbabe 15 years ago

You must have a great imagination if you think there is anything sexual between the two women in The Birds. Trust someone who has seen the movie a hundred times -- I'm 53 so that is possible -- that is not a subplot or back story or whatever you want to call it.

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[–] MystMoonstruck 10 years ago

I agree with you! Both women are in love with Mitch! She became a schoolteacher in a small town so that she could be close to Mitch but never managed to accomplish the relationship she longs for.

The newcomer gets some advice about the situation.

It's so sad that she officially bows out, seeing the other woman is perhaps going to win Mitch's heart in a way that she couldn't.

Mitch is their shared fascination.

In "The Haunting", Eleanor falls in love with the doctor. Theo gets bitchy when she realizes this, angry that Eleanor is very obviously heterosexual. Bi?! No way! Theo doesn't act in the least interested in the doctor and reacts rather violently to a pass. What next? Are they going to decide the men are attracted?! No. It doesn't work that way. Check out the Hercules and Xena series; no one suggested anything between Hercules and Aeolus, right?

BTW, I'm watching this on TCM for the second time this month. In my 60+ years, I've seen this film far more than 100 times and will continue watching it whenever possible.

Since reading "Carrie", I always wondered if Eleanor and her unseen mother helped form Carrie and HER mother in Stephen King's mind. He used the rain of stones not once but twice in his novels.

(W)hat are we without our dreams?
Making sure our fantasies
Do not overpower our realities. ~ RC

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[–] Prof_Lostiswitz 10 years ago

Stephen King was a big fan of this story, he discusses it at length in Danse Macabre. It is more than likely that Eleanor inspired Carrie.

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[–] Invariable Self 19 years ago

That's an interesting interpretation of Theo's admission of what frightens her, Erin. I think you might be right about her being confused about her sexuality. But I think it is not about her not knowing if she is a lesbian or not, but her feeling towards sexuality altogether. For example, notice the strange way Theo always feels cold when the ghost is around. Thus her fear is her frigidity. Theo is afraid she might not want sex anymore.

"The books have nothing to say!"
-- Fahrenheit 451

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[–] Dr_Prunesquallor 19 years ago

Hi Self

Some time no see

No, no, he has yet to achieve mediocrity.

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[–] Invariable Self 19 years ago

Hi Dr P, nice to hear from you again too.

"The books have nothing to say!"
-- Fahrenheit 451

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[–] SliverScreen 18 years ago

The feeling of coldness when a ghost is around is a common description in hauntings, and the other characters confirmed feeling cold also. I don't think it was indicative of Theo's feelings towards sexuality, just more of a confirmation that ghosts were present in the house.

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[–] jfitzpatrick3 16 years ago

I think Theo feels the coldness more because of her ESP-makes her more sensitive
"At the end of life, we will be judged by love" ST John of the Cross

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[–] monsterpop 18 years ago

that's not much of a "theory", is it? a cat could come up with something better with its tail!

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] sareed 15 years ago

Wow. That's just miserably ignorant and insulting. Geez.

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[–] butaneggbert 8 years ago

I'm grateful Erin's post is more than 10 years old, because even when it was posted it expressed a grossly outdated "theory".

Bisexuals are attracted to males and females. There's no "confusion" about it. It's not an interim step between polar states that are somehow more legitimate. It's in and of itself a perfectly normal stripe of sexuality.

While I've got my soapbox under my feet, this "theory" is as out of sync with reality as the one expressed in one of the responses to it: that Theo might be a lesbian in response to a negative experience with a man. Sexuality doesn't work that way. For heaven's sake, read a book.

_______________

Nothing to see here, move along.

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[–] Stratego (31081) 4 years ago

For heaven's sake, read the post, you pathetic snowflake. The poster said it was "a theory", not something they believe themselves.

Oh, you mean "outdated" like in 1963??? And why do you go on about "reality" when this is fiction?

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[–] cyguration (3951) 3 years ago

Oh, you mean "outdated" like in 1963??? And why do you go on about "reality" when this is fiction?

Those types are programmed to recoil at truths that disrupt their narrative. Even converted lesbians make it known that most of them are that way due to abuse by men:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SVqkIst2u4

The Rainbow Reich gets furious whenever lesbians convert back to heterosexuality after coming to terms with their trauma and overcoming their hang-ups with men. They attack them and belittle them. The bigger question is, why? If these women are now in healthy relationships with men and have overcome their trauma and no longer lesbians, shouldn't the Rainbow Reich be happy?

Obviously, though, it's not about helping or healing, it's about subjugation and control.

Dishonesty is the biggest virtue that the Rainbow Reich employs, and so long as they can keep their prefects espousing said dishonesty, they can maintain control over these troubled and obviously hurting individuals.

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[–] ktrek 19 years ago

This lesbian subplot really surprised me as I have seen the movie several times and never really picked up on it until this viewing.

Kevin

PS. For a great place to discuss classic films come to http://www.goldenageofhollywood.com
We loving talking about old films of the golden age.

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[–] daizymouze 19 years ago

It wasn't dropped from the remake.

It's still there.

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[–] filmbuff87 19 years ago

someone way above said that Theo leaned in for a kiss from Nell but then the ghost interrrupted. when was this?

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[–] daizymouze 19 years ago

I think it almost happened when Theo gave Nell the shall/blanket and was playing with her hair.

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[–] GunHillTrain 19 years ago

It's pretty obvious in the novel that the there is a lot of sexual tension among the three "subjects" in the house, Luke, Nell, and Theo. All three of them are making subtle - or not so subtle - moves on each other.

In the novel, only the Doctor is out of the loop in that particular situation, maybe because he is married and his wife is due to arrive soon, just as in the '63 movie.

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[–] daizymouze 19 years ago

Yep. True. I think it would have been far too awkward for the Doctor to be involved in that triangle.

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[–] GunHillTrain 19 years ago

The movie version (1963) simplifies the plot and - I would guess - makes it more palatable for audiences of that era.

A missed opportunity in the '99 movie is that, unlike earlier versions, the doctor's wife doesn't show up at the halfway point. I think a lot could have been done with that if that plot point been kept in.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] SliverScreen 18 years ago

Nell was definitely throwing some not-so-subtle moves on the Doc.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Vanihm 17 years ago

I can't beleive you took so long to figure it out. Its so bloody obvious it's almost embarassing; I mean, Nell calls Theo gods mistake and when asked to stay in the same room she smiles and says "you're the doctor". I felt it almost felt a bit like the gay Wayans bros charachter in Scary movie.

All the best people have bad chest and bone diseases. It's all frightfully romantic!

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[–] rpj32253 18 years ago

I knew I wasn't just imagining that!
I'm in the middle of watching it on TMC and I came here to check if anyone else thought Theo was a lesbian.

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[–] MovieMan0283part2 18 years ago

True, I suspected something was up with the woman who often seemed to be teasing the other one sexually; and when she said she wasn't married I was suspicious but it was never made entirely clear - at one point I thought she was implying that she lived with a man but wasn't married to him. Needless to say I wondered why this was so scandalous in '63...so either I'm a bit slow on the uptake or the lesbian subplot was kept extremely subtle. Nothing wrong with that, though.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] joeann_21 18 years ago

I had seen the movie a couple of days ago - having seen it numerous times, I always wondered what Luke meant when he said that comment, I think that was a good interpretation, Odd.

I never really thought about a lesbian subplot, but after reading other posts, I was always curious of the scene: Why was Theo obviously angry with Eleanore, when she sees her and the doctor sharing breakfast together. I always wondered what is she angry for. So that could have been a clue there as well.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] FineGlassSlipper 18 years ago

You people are unreal...LOL

Now, I surmise this horror classic is going to become a lesbian cult film!

Hell! End the mystery! Put "Theo" in a flannel shirt, camoflauge dungarees, combat boots and allow her to have a new line in the script during dinner, "My nickname is 'Butch' and I drive a truck. I am also quite fond of canned tuna, opened of course, sitting in my dresser drawer."

Geezie Petes!

The movie is about a "haunted house" and perhaps, even how the mind/imagination can become just as haunted.

It was created and designed to make money for the film industry, the writers, directors, producers, actors, etc., and suddenly, now we are questioning the characters' sexual preferences!

You people want to turn it into a low-budget lesbian fiasco!

Unreal!

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] FineGlassSlipper 18 years ago

Obviously, I got a wee big under your skin, just as intended!

That's why people write novels, poetry, make movies, to cause a human reaction...

An no, I don't have a case of "lesbophobia"...I just thought it was humorous that my entire premise for coming here was to read how people reacted to this classic film, as in, being frightened and if they thought the house was intended to really be "haunted" or if the "doctor" was just conducting a study, i.e., in "human reaction", to see how people might react if they were told, in advance, that the mansion was thought to be "possessed" by outside/unknown sources.

Upon my arrival, I find that most of the subject matter is about a supposed lesbian relationship that didn't even exist! I can only surmise that you people were hoping so!

I find it hilarious and quite "queer"...heeheehee

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[–] SliverScreen 18 years ago

Not under anyone's skin, you are just a bit annoying as well as dismissive. But oh well.

I do think the lesbophobia might be a factor here- it never hurts to examine your own biases. Also, to equate a post on par with writing a novel or poetry or making movies is a tad bit egocentric you think? LOL

Certainly the women did not have a 'lesbian' relationship, but Theo was most definitely at least not strictly heterosexual. You don't have to have gay-dar to see that one. My grandmother is the least gay-dar person I know and even she saw it. 'Us people' saw what was deliberately placed in the movie by the director & screen-writers.

To answer the other part of your post, I do think the house was indeed haunted (the first 10 minutes of the film explicitly states that), but in addition the doc was conducting experiments on the other characters.

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[–] FineGlassSlipper 18 years ago

What does being a lesbian have to do with a haunted house?

If you are honestly interested in the characters' sexual preferences, lesbianism and witnessing a lesbian seduction complete with graphic lovemaking between two women, why rent this movie?

Go rent a porn flick!
(Most all of them have the token fluffs with the lesbo scene!)

Find yourself a film that really has "things that go bump in the night" and enjoy a real BANG!

Heeheehee

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[–] SliverScreen 18 years ago

So basically, in your view of moviemaking, they are supposed to be completely one-dimensional without ANY other plot lines or character development, beyond the primary one. Is there some sort of law book the rest of us are not privy to, that states what exactly is allowed in horror flicks and what is not? If you understood anything about horror film history, it has always been rife with characters treading into forbidden territory, sometimes in a sexual way. vampires = sexual wearwolves = uncontrollability Dr. Jekel Mr.Hyde witches

Are you adverse to ALL sexual tension in movies, or is it just lesbian sex? Furthermore, no one is talking about sex here either, just sexual tension, so apparently YOU are the one so obsessed with lesbo sex that you can't keep your mind on the movie or anything else, as you keep coming back to this board and bitching about it. Move along and YOU watch a porno since that is where your mind seems to be and you seem completely incapable of discussing it in a meaningful way.

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[–] elsol5776 18 years ago

OK, u just worked my nerve, too. Read the Trivia section for this 1963 film. And Watch It AGAIN!! Also, it is clearly and blunting obvious in the remake when Theo says "my boyfriend thinks i have commetment issues, my girlfriend doesn't. If we could all live togehter we could be happy, too bad they hate each other." (not exact but close to it)

(from IMDb's Triva) Claire Bloom was intrigued to the play the role of a woman who was attracted to another woman. She said she got along with everyone on the set, except for Julie Harris, who tried everything to avoid her and not talk to her. At the end of the shoot Harris went over to Bloom's house with a present and explained that the reason she had kept to herself was to stay in character, because Harris' role in the film was that of an outsider that none of the others understand or will listen to. Bloom was happy to hear the real reason behind Harris' behavior, since Bloom stated that she really liked Harris and could not understand what she herself had done wrong to be treated like that by her co-star.

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[–] turtletommy 18 years ago

So the remake has Theo saying that about her boyfriend, and girlfriend. Obviously the original doesn't even in code unless I've missed something. Other posters have mentioned that Wise apparently filmed a scene with Bloom saying something about her boyfriend and/or girlfriend but it was edited out of the final film. Does anyone know if the novel either clearly stated that Cleo had a boyfriend, girlfriend or both - or more likely indirectly did so? (This was in the late 50's after all) Just because the remake had this in the script doesn't mean it was in the original film or novel.

That second paragraph of info about Bloom is also in the DVD extras.

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[–] SliverScreen 18 years ago

It seems silly to not discuss a significant deliberate insertion of character development in this movie. Why not discuss it? What's wrong with it? Is everyone supposed to just ignore the elephant in the room? That would be unreal. Its one element were are talking about and no one is obsessing. What's your prob with it? If you want to discuss something, then start a new thread and stop bitching about this one and get over it. LOL

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[–] ammasyncletica 18 years ago

i actually think their interactions don't make sense without the underlying sexual tension. what I mean is, theo is completely enigmatic if you don't understand why she's so cruel to Nell once it becomes clear that Nell has a thing for the doctor. That only works in the movie because she doesn't really know the doctor is married, which is why in the book, it's luke. Still, the dynamic between theo and nell depends on the sexual tension between them and I really do think the women in the original play it very well. very subtle and very effective.

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[–] FineGlassSlipper 18 years ago

Well, for those of you (YOU people!) who are really interested in Theo's sexual preference, I suppose we should have yet, another remake of this flick.

Yes! An "adult" version where Theo seduces Eleanor, complete with total female nudity and graphic sexual content!

Yeah! That's the ticket...

And I bet y'all would purchase one, too and stand in lines for hours to see the film, (in order to critique it, of course!), if necessary!

Talk about "things that go bump in the night"...a real BANG!

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] GunHillTrain 18 years ago

Hey, FineGlassSlipper, go over to the message board for the 1999 version of this movie; we have a lively discussion going on about this very issue in the thread called, "Why Did They Cut The Love Scene?"

In fact, I've posted some scenes that I wrote about a love affair between Theo and Nell, and I think I've kept in within a PG-13 rating.

Oh, yeah, it's supposed to be a comedy, although maybe it turned out to be more plausible than what was really done in '99.

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[–] turtletommy 18 years ago

FineGlassSlipper, it is what it is, get over it that some might have noticed this subplot and want to discuss it. Oh, and without a doubt all your posts here show you to be a complete moron. Unbelievable.

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[–] chaskins9 16 years ago

Quite frankly the horror genre is probably the genre most riddled with homosexual subtexts. It is taught in film school and this film was most certainly viewed in my lesbians in film class taught by Mandy Merck, Professor of Media Arts at Royal Holloway, University of London.

Horror doesn't exist for just its own sake it is also a social commentary on our subconscious cultural fears in many cases. Regardless, the lesbian subtext of this film, which seem obvious to me and many others, is part of the haunting issue. Eleanor is clearly the main attraction of both the house and Theo. It is a mistake to separate the two.

When Eleanor dies, her ghost in the voice over echoes the words of the opening narration "whatever walked there, walked alone", stating, "We who walk here, walk alone" She is now part of a "we" one can only assume what that is. At the very least she and the house are now one.

This is no stupid stretch. This is part of the story and it was toned down for the film.

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[–] GunHillTrain 16 years ago

I would agree with you, but I would add that the story is also very much a product of the time it was written and the person who wrote it. Shirley Jackson was born in 1916 and published the novel in 1959; the movie was released only four years later. The character of Eleanor herself seems to have been born around 1927 (according to the novel).

I'm fifty-four, so I grew up with what could be called "baby boomer" attitudes towards sexuality. From what I've heard from people who grew up in earlier eras, homosexuality, especially lesbianism, was much farther in the background of mainstream culture. People certainly engaged in it, but it wasn't discussed in the (mostly) matter-of-fact way it is today.

I could speculate that if Eleanor has homosexual or bi-sexual feelings, she may believe that those are a peculiarity of her own personality, not something that is a part of the human condition. That might explain the emotional tension that is present throughout the story.

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[–] blackwood_sugar 15 years ago

Shirley Jackson traveled in unconventional, radical, bohemian intellectual circles. She was acutely aware of lesbianism, as she and another student were accused of being lesbian lovers while she was in college in the 1930s.

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[–] turtletommy 16 years ago

I guess I'm not understanding what you mean or imply when you say "she is now part of a "we" one can only assume what that is." What are you assuming? Part of a lesbian relationship, or? Clearly according to Wise and Bloom whose comments are on the DVD, Theo was a lesbian character. I never got the impression Eleanor was conflicted about her sexuality in the film - she clearly seemed taken by Dr. Markway and was crushed when she found out he was married. All the lesbian innuendo came from the remarks by Theo directed to Eleanor.

Definitely in genres that haven't been taken very seriously especially in the past, such as horror and sci-fi, a lot of social commentary and ideas could be expressed (at times more blatantly) than in more mainstream ones.

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[–] GunHillTrain 16 years ago

It seems this problem has come up before in discussions of The Haunting: the novel and the movie emphasize different things. And I think I've been called to task before for mentioning the novel because the board is about the movie.

I'll go for it anyway: any conflict Eleanor has about her sexuality is muted or removed from the film (because of Hollywood standards at the time?).

In the novel, Eleanor is not interested in the professor; she makes a half-hearted "pass" at Luke. As for Theo, I think Eleanor is aware of what the other woman is thinking - and her feelings are hurt when Theo eventually rejects her. Yes, Eleanor is interested in friendship too, but I think more than that is going on.

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[–] turtletommy 16 years ago

Chaskins9 said in her/his post: "This is no stupid stretch. This is part of the story and it was toned down for the film." If I'm correct in assuming that refers to a homosexual (lesbian) subtext/reference in the story - and chaskins9 post is referring to the film's story not the novel's I believe- I honestly don't see how it's really "toned down" that much! Especially when one finds out that from the get-go of the film production that Claire Bloom was told by the screenwriter and director Wise that she was playing a lesbian character. If anything, and I've read the novel, the lesbian angle seems more obvious and out front in the film than in the novel- which I felt was more obtuse and vague whether by intention or not. ESPECIALLY when this great film is judged and the screenplay is broken down in this day and age the "truth"/obviousness of the intended lesbian subtext is right out there. "Toned down" could also mean Wise and Co. handled the subject matter with great taste and subtlety which I believe they did.

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[–] GunHillTrain 16 years ago

[spoiler alert; don't say you weren't warned]

Ok, folks, this isn't the Bible we're interpreting here.

I do wonder, sometimes, what this story is really about (both novel and film). Why did Jackson create this plot of a young woman who seems to be getting her first break in life and then falls into madness and suicide? (The latter is very explicit in the novel.)

Maybe a study of mental illness is the whole point of it. (And if you think of that filmmaker who shot footage of a succession of people jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, it's any everyday event.)

Or was Jackson moving towards some grasp of feminism or a tolerance for different sexual orientations? (Not that she would put it in those terms in 1959.)

If the film (and by extension the novel) is great as opposed to merely entertaining, then it must have something to say to us.

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