Question about Dyle
I just watched this, I loved it, but I don't get something, this might be a stupid question. did they all think Cary Grant was Dyle the whole time? If they all knew him before wouldn't they realize it's not him?
shareTex, Scobie and Gideon didn't think Cary Grant was Carson Dyle, the man they'd left behind to die; they were under the impression he was Alexander Dyle, Carson Dyle's brother.
shareWhen did they say that they thought that he was Carson Dyle's brother?
Okay, one of them called Mrs. Lampert and told her to watch out for Dyle (Cary Grant), but I thought that maybe he was just lying to her. Even so, when Tex and this character were on the phone, Tex would have had to reason to address him as Dyle. My guess is that it's just a minor editing problem. A few statements were likely left out.
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JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen
When did they say that they thought that he was Carson Dyle's brother?
Scobie refers to Grant's character as "Dyle" when he's on the phone with Audrey Hepburn (right after he and "Dyle" get into a scuffle). A later scene involving Tex, Gideon, Grant, Hepburn and the Police Inspector (after Scobie's bathtub drowning) makes it clear the man everyone knows as "Alexander Dyle" previously registered in a Megeve hotel as "Peter Joshua." Finally, Tex addresses Grant's character as "Dyle" when the two are on the phone immediately following Gideon's murder. So the script does establish that the others are under the impression Grant's character is "Alexander Dyle," Carson Dyle's brother.
However, in the phone booth sequence at the American Express, Grant tells Hepburn (and the audience) about his true loyalties - REGGIE: Carson Dyle is dead.
DYLE: Yes, he is - he was my brother.
REGGIE: Your brother?
DYLE: The army thinks he was killed in action by the Germans, but I think they did it - Tex, Gideon, Scobie and your husband - because my brother wouldn't go along with their scheme to steal the gold. I think he threatened to turn them in, and they killed him. And I'm trying to prove it. They think I'm working with them, but I'm not, Reggie; I'm on your side. Just believe that.
Making up a story about being Carson Dyle's brother to those men would have been a dumb thing to do. After all, how did Cary Grant's character know how much detail those men knew about Carson Dyle? Maybe Carson told them that he had no brother. In fact, during the war, it would have been a reasonable topic of conversation. They might have asked him if he had brothers fighting, and he might have said that he has no brothers. Cary Grant's character couldn't have known what they knew and what they didn't know about Carson. Of course, they could have known that he was lying and they were just going along with his lie, but that wouldn't explain why Tex would call him "Dyle" on the phone.
I never got the impression during the film that those men thought of him as Carson Dyle's brother, anyway. A couple of times he was addressed as "Dyle". My guess is that this was just a minor error made on the part of the filmmakers. No big deal...I still love the film.
By the way, the dialogue you posted....no indication there that he had introduced himself as Alex Dyle to those men.
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JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen
I never got the impression during the film that those men thought of him as Carson Dyle's brother, anyway.
If they didn't think of him as Carson Dyle's brother, then why were they calling him "Dyle"? And if Tex, Gideon and Scobie didn't think Grant was who he claimed to be, then why were they cooperating with him? The film never gives us a scene where Grant walks up to them and says "Hi, I'm Carson Dyle's brother," but then, it doesn't need to; the script has already established they've accepted him as "Alexander Dyle." Of course, the script also makes it clear that Scobie isn't keen about sharing the money with him, but not because he doesn't accept his identity - he doesn't want to share it because Alexander Dyle wasn't there when they stole the gold. For all we know, Tex and Gideon may feel the same way, but they can see "Alexander Dyle" may be useful to them because Reggie trusts him.
In fact, there isn't a single moment in the film where Tex, Scobie or Gideon express doubts about Grant being Carson Dyle's brother.
I'm planning on giving this movie another look tonight. I'll pay attention to this minor detail. My guess is that the scriptwriters probably just left out a line or two. Usually this is something that film profs will consider "thinking beyond what the movie shows us", but I call it "poor editing of the original source material". (I love to read old mysteries, and this happens a lot.)
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JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen
Okay, I watched this film again and paid attention to this minor detail. Yes, looks like Cary Grant's character was pretending to be Carson Dyle's brother to the crooks, but I think he had no intention of letting Reggie know this. I'm not sure why he insisted on having her call him Peter Joshua. Eventually she got suspicious when he was called "Dyle" by the others. He could have avoided this by introducing himself as Alexander Dyle to her right away. Of course, he was still taking a risk in letting the fellows think that he was Carson Dyle's brother. After all, they might have known that Carson Dyle had no brother.
I seem to recall thinking (when I first saw this film) that Cary Grant's character considered letting Reggie think that he was Carson Dyle after the phone call in which one of those other guys said something like, "Don't trust Dyle. He's only after the money." I noticed that he waited a long time before telling her the name Alexander, and he seemed to do it after a bit of a pause, anyway (once he was in her room, after he fought out on the roof). She said something like, "Carson Dyle is dead" and he seemed to think for a little while before replying.
Oh well, just a small detail. Wonderful film!
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JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen
I'm not sure why he insisted on having her call him Peter Joshua.I think it's rather obvious; Joshua was trying to gain her trust and hoping that that approach would help in getting the information they were looking for. He had agreed with the trio to that approach.
Joshua and the trio assumed that she might know about the money. Her husband (Charles Lampert) might have told her about how he, the trio and Carson Dyle stole the money and how he (Lampert) cheated the rest out of their share of the money. So after Lampert ends up murdered, the name Dyle might have scared Reggie immediately off.
After all, they might have known that Carson Dyle had no brother.We don't know for certain if Carson Dyle had no brother. All we have are the words of Mr. Bartholomew who was trying to make Reggie suspicious of Cary Grant's character.
I noticed that he waited a long time before telling her the name Alexander, and he seemed to do it after a bit of a pause, anyway (once he was in her room, after he fought out on the roof). She said something like, "Carson Dyle is dead" and he seemed to think for a little while before replying.Reggie was never supposed to hear any other name than Peter Joshua; he was hesitant to tell her too many unnecessary lies because he was still trying to gain her trust. Possibly he paused because he had to think for a little while to remember his fake first name ("What was the first name of my Dyle alias again? Ah, yes: Alexander."). We must also take into account that Cruikshank possibly knew (or suspected) that the real Carson Dyle wasn't dead.
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Oh yes, good point that Reggie might have already heard of Carson Dyle from her hubby. Okay, that clears up the reason why he gave the name Peter Joshua.
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...what could qualify as a plot hole though, considering the name "Dyle", is when she is told by the actual Dyle (Matthau) on their way to the cafe that "Dyle is dead". Since she didn't know that Grant would later claim that he's "Alexander" and not Carson, she should have been surprised and say something along the lines of "Dyle could not be dead Mr Bartholomew, one of his wartime buddies called and told me that Peter Joshua is actually Carson Dyle".
(...he could of course had lied to her for some reason - the thing however is even this should have been debated by "Reggie" while they were sitting at the cafe...)
All the above actually mean to make the point that there's not much sense in trying to identify "why Grant kept changing names -etc" and if the scriptwriter kept an intact pace in the unraveling of the knot or...not. Because the jest of it is that by implicating Gran'ts character background and standing too much, the goal was to make the movie catchier.
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Memory is a wonderful thing if you don't have to deal with the past
Well, at this point, she knew that she was being lied to. She even said to the real Dyle something like "I'm so confused".
And you're right. There is no point trying to figure out why the name changes kept happening. I just kick back and I enjoy the film - the music, the storyline, the clothes....
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) and Ellery Queen =
...Matthau's burp too! Do not omit enjoying such little gems scattered all over this nice movie ;)
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Oh, I didn't appreciate that burp. That was badly done. Matthau can do better (besides burping).
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) and Ellery Queen =
...I (generally) tend to be right about stuff however. So, give it another try for appreciation (I'm not into obnoxious bodily noises as a criterion for liking films, yet this one was totally unexpected -especially coming from Matthau- in a Cary Grant/Audrey Hepburn thing on top of it all and qualifies as an extraordinary and ingeniously tossed gem of comic relief).
[Even though the truth is that if it didn't hit the spot the very 1st time, it's rather hard to do it on another take. Well, try your best anyway :-)]
Memory is a wonderful thing if you don't have to deal with the pastshare
I've seen this film at least ten times and now I find myself fast-forwarding through this little part. I've seen it several times and it didn't appeal to me.
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) and Ellery Queen =
Nah, it's not the burp itself. It's the whole movie atmosphere that's wrapped around it that makes the cherry pop properly.
But like I said, if you hated the first time, it's actually unlikely to see it (hear it yet) otherwise. It was nice of you to give it one more go though.
(...however, you could try some other kind of approach on it : 'cause it's not a sound that actually comes from Matthau - it's been added while editing. And it intentionally sounds "ridiculously loud" too, considering. Plus it's not present in the original movie script, which translates into Donen being a playful little rascal of a director. Now, think about it - to get into all this trouble for what? A burp? Unless he thought it was a nice touch. And oh it really was...)
Memory is a wonderful thing if you don't have to deal with the pastshare