MovieChat Forums > Bye Bye Birdie (1963) Discussion > My Problem with this Movie

My Problem with this Movie

posted 15 years ago by owen_a_peterson
35 replies | jump to latest

Forgive me for being a bit negative but this is how I feel about not just this movie but Bye Bye Birdie altogether. Maybe I just don't have the answers or a full understanding of it. But I feel that BBB has too many problems and maybe some of you may be able to help me:

1. Why doesn't Conrad Birdie have any or much development in his character? I mean he mostly does singing numbers but as a character he isn't on screen long enough for character development, I mean couldn't they build on his persona as an obnoxious egomaniacal jerk and build him into the main antagonist of some sort. But they choose not to add any persona to his character.

2. Albert's Mother, Mae. Personally I can't stand the character, she doesn't quite blend in with the rest of the characters. She also annoyed me to no end, with her constant interfering in Albert's business. I also would have prefered if Albert had stood up to his mother and told her to get out of town like in the musical, instead of having her start dating the bartender and just grant's Albert permission to marry Rose. Personally I thought that the whole overbearing mother idea was a little too out of place in this particular musical, but my hunch is the writers felt that the Albert/Rosie romance needed a conflict so they created her, but I feel she didn't quite fit in.

3. Birdie's numbers sound more like upbeat jazz than rock and roll. I mean sure, Rock and Roll was still rather new at the time, but the musical numbers that meant to be Rock and Roll sound too much like upbeat jazz. At least in the 1995 Made for TV version, they fixed this problem.

4. The plot is quite thin, when I saw this as a child, I couldn't quite understand the plot too well. but now today it still doesn't make sense to me.

There are some good things, the songs are catchy enough, the resentment that the boys have for Conrad makes sense. I felt that this movie and the musical in general had it's heart in the right place, but it just failed to impress me, but I was hoping that by posting my feelings here. I would get answers to these questions. I hope you understand and would be willing to help me find the answer to these questions.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] owen_a_peterson 15 years ago

I agree with you about Paul Lynde as Harry, the grumpy, detestful father made perfect sense, but I didn't have a problem with Ann Margret as Kim, because it's supposed to be a musical about teenagers. I just feel that Conrad was never developed, the Mama Mae character shouldn't have been created, the plot was confusing, among other things.

[–] boxerrebellion 10 years ago

Maybe your issues with Mae stem from the fact that when the movie was made, the racism that was behind Mae's dislike of Rosie was played down. In the production my middle schooler is currently in, Mae meets a 'nice girl' on the bus (in quotes, because from appearances, she isn't). The character is dressed in tight leggings, leopard print shirt, chews her gum loudly and just comes across as 'low class' and NOT someone Mae would have approved of had Albert brought her home for Sunday dinner.

[–] seldomread 15 years ago

1. Conrad is a satirical caricature of Elvis. A hick-made-good who symbolizes the shallowness of American culture. He is at once an object of idol worship for the girls, an alpha male rival for the boys, and a vessel of capitalistic hope for Albert, Rosie and Harry McAfee. To flesh him out is to destroy his usefulness as the maypole everyone else dances around. The fact that he is being drafted threatens everyone's fantasy with the specter of camo-colored, cold-war duty collecting a private's pay and living a drab life on a military base somewhere.

2. Mae is a satirical caricature of a Jewish mother who serves as the symbol of the overbearing everymom who dotes on her son and constantly questions his choices. She is a reliable comedic stereotype supplying a calculated measure of dramatic conflict and anchoring the show's inter-generational commentary, such as it is.

3. Remember that BBB predates the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. The great songs it offers give us a flavor of modern American music in transition, and are the main excuse for performing the show at all. It is a wonderful songbook adorned with a dumb, sort of funny play, but hey, that's musical comedy.

4. As time marches on, the biggest problem BBB will face are its anachronisms. Once upon a time, there was a military draft and a TV variety show host named Ed Sullivan. You'll just have to trust us on that and suspend your disbelief.

[–] ragreen259 15 years ago

Excellent answers to what I thought were relatively inane questions in the first place. Well done. I think some people can't accept a film for what it is, and think it either has to be the way THEY want it to be, featuring the people THEY want featured... I'm so tired of "it's not like the book," or "it's not like it was on Broadway..." Yeah, well, guess what, it's not Broadway. I've often wondered when people read a book with a story taken from a movie if they complain, "Well, it was OK, but it wasn't like the movie..."
And for whoever was being snippy about Ann-Margret's part, I'll tell you why it's expanded--LOOK AT HER. Good lord.

[–] boxerrebellion 10 years ago

I was actually surprised a bit at the very subtle (in fact, the director is young enough she may not have recognized them) racism by Mae against Rosie in my middle school daughter's current production. In fact, I'm pretty sure none of the tween/teen cast recognize Mae as a Jewish mother trope - because except for Mrs. Wolowicz on Big Bang, they probably don't know what it is.... and due to their 'modern sensibilities' don't even recognize HER as a Jewish Mama.

[–] owen_a_peterson 15 years ago

But what does Mae have to do with Conrad Birdie?

[–] brackenhe 15 years ago

Well, there is a second story line where Albert wants to quit songwriting and go into medical research, but Albert's father (and Mae's husband) started the songwriting agency. And Albert wants to marry Rosie, who is supposed to be Puerto Rican, which is not acceptable to Mae. He's a mama's boy though and is conflicted about the career change. Mae comes to town to stop the romance and encourage him to stay with the songwriting, and since he hasn't sold a song in a long time and Mae's been backing his failing business he feels he owes her something.

Are you sure you've actually watched the movie?

[–] traveller007 15 years ago

There are some great answers in this thread...Just let me add that I'm watching it today, July 4, 2010, while working on a computer...and then, the innocence, as represented in the movie, was perfect and true...then.

I mean teenage girls wore girdles for God's sake...such a different time, rotary phones, no computers of course...

The movie was just true then, and represented truth, then.

Mae was fine as the Mother, (and true for a time when the vast majority of women did not work, and maybe in a larger sense, could not).

If you did not live then, you probably can't understand.

Character development? What's that?....Then.

Best Wishes, Traveller

[–] Knowitallgeek 15 years ago

I agree with most comments, but this musical is a bit weird. However, I don't think it was completely innocent. I think maybe there is a bit of a slam on American middle class cold war culture: trivial entertainment pursuits, youth obsessed, get rich quick, prejudice, ect- along with the cute songs. Not sure Birdie is supposed to have a character. Just thinkin'. Perhaps too much!

[–] traveller007 15 years ago

No, No, Geek, I think you got it...but even the skewering of American Middle Class Society was....gentle hearted, innocent as you were.

It was, maybe the last moment of our seeing ourselves and America...as innocent. It was fun.

and of course, we didn't see Ann Margret as completely innocent...but Heavens wasn't she lovely?!? And I kind of resent the comment that somehow she had changed for Carnal Knowledge...but of course she did!

She grew up...as we all did.

She was...just so vital and sexy then...but she was more of a human being in Carnal Knowledge.

I just finished watching it for the first time in 10 or so years...a great movie, in my opinion.

Best Wishes, Traveller

[–] bboops23 15 years ago

I never fully understood the story line as a child as well. But after watching it today I had no problems understanding it. I took a two part class on Media history. In the second part we spent about a month talking about Elvis. First off, the term Rock n' Roll was not coined until 1955 (By Radio DJ Allen Freed). And the first Rock n' Roll performer by those standards was Elvis (although his music mirrored some of the work of artists like Little Richard and other RnB performers. I must admit the actor did not have the lip curling or the hip gyrating properly mastered. And if you want to be technical Rock n' Roll performed by artists such as the Beatles and Rock n' Roll today are completely different things than what it started out as.

Also from my studies I can explain their reasoning for taking the focus away from Albert and Rosie. Everyone keeps saying it isn't like the play. Well I only saw the play when I was in elementary school and it was a production by my brother's middle school. I am now in college if that gives you some perspective. But with the competition from Television in the 50's (Television was finally readily available after the Korean War ended) Hollywood had to find ways to make money. One of the largest demographics at the time was teenagers. They were everywhere. So Rock n' Roll musicals were being made, they were cheap to make and profitable at the box office. So what better to do than make a movie that would attract teenagers. They wanted to get Elvis to star in it and if they had it probably would have made twice the money in the box office. That's what explains the change of focus for characters.

Why add an overbearing mother? Comic relief

Why did Conrad have no character development? Well he was supposed to be like Elvis. When people heard that Elvis died of a drug overdose they were shocked. My dad was driving and pulled over onto the side of the road for 10 minutes. Elvis was a good southern boy. He grew up poor and didn't really know how to handle fame. That's one of the reasons he highly considered the role of Conrad. His first record was recorded for 10 cents by a man who recorded cheap records for southern blacks, the man described Elvis as being nervous and jittery but a heck of a singer.

So you ask why his going into the army effected people the way it did? Well, girls swooned over the guy. Guys hated the man. Parents hated what it did to their daughters. He wasn't exactly what you'd consider masculine. When I studied him we studied his feminine aspects as being the new masculinity of the 50's. His being drafted was not a coincidence.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

[–] owen_a_peterson 15 years ago

One other thing I don't understand is why did they had Mae just start dating the bartender and just grant Albert permission to marry Rosie as opposed to having Albert finally breaking free and telling his mother to get out of Sweet Apple and to stay out of his affairs like in the original, because the latter actually helps develop Albert's character in a better way IMO.

[–] bradford-1 15 years ago

One problem in the nondevelopment of Birdie as a character is that the film drops a song performed in the play by Albert, Rose and a gaggle of teen girls. Reporters zing "hard" questions at Rose & Al about Conrad and they answer in contradictions as the girls keep interjecting "We love you, Connnrad...'' The questions include: "Is Conrad still drinking a lot?" "We hear you discovered him in a reform school..." "Did he really throw himself on the mercy of the draft board?"

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] goldenagefilmstv (178) 2 years ago

@bboops23

Anybody who thinks Elvis wasn't masculine needs to have their eyes checked!

[–] Lt_Zogg 11 years ago

The story isn't about Conrad Birdie, it's about Rosie and Albert (and Hugo and Kim). And Mae is the reason Rosie and Albert still aren't married. You could say Conrad and Mae play parallel roles--Conrad is to Hugo and Kim as Mae is to Rosie and Albert.

[–] boxerrebellion 10 years ago

Great response. I had always thought the story was about Birdie (don't remember how many decades it had been since I'd seen it; was never an Elvis fan, so this wasn't really 'my' movie); my middle school daughter was just in the play and we recently saw the movie, and I realized that Conrad is actually more of a prop than a character.

[–] bpollen 11 years ago

In most movies there is a character called the antagonist. It's the fly in the ointment character. The one that the good characters must overcome. The one who stands in the way. This is true for almost all movies and novels. It's a formulaic thing. Sort of like boy-meets-girl, boy-gets-girl, boy-loses-girl, boy-gets-girl in the end formula for love stories.

That's what Albert's mother is. The antagonist. The one who stands in the way of Albert & Rose's happiness and maybe even fortune.

So it becomes part of the plot. Albert and Rose must overcome the antagonist (the mother), in order to find happiness, and win over adversity.

Plus, she's just a fun character. That was a great song she did with Paul Lynde: Kids.

Kids!
You can talk and talk to your face is blue
Kids!
But they still insist what they want to do
Why can't they be like we were,
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids, to-day?

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] PrestigiousPorcupine 11 years ago

I like your responses! I don't understand why this movie has a low-ish rating. I thought it was pretty funny and satirical, definitely not meant to be taken seriously. I excused a lot of the shallow-ness because I felt like it was just mocking the time period and I think people sometimes take it too seriously.

[–] singjohn 10 years ago

Excellent answers!

[–] ajprice-1 9 years ago

As I read all the negative comments and observations on this board, I was trying to draft a response in my head. When I got to your comment, I realized that you said it sooner and better than I could have done. Perfect in facts and perspective.

[–] HansWind 9 years ago

That was pretty much exactly how I was going to respond to the original post. You saved me the time! Thanks!!

[–] [email protected] (2042) 3 years ago

No wonder the colonel didn't want Elvis to do this.

[–] wgranger 14 years ago

1. The movie is really not about Conrad Birdie so there is no need to really develop his character. In the John Daly news segment, all of Conrad's character is summed up - a grin, a look, a twist of the hips.

2. Albert's mother's character is created as the reason Albert and Rosie are still engaged after 6 years. There are two love interests here: Hugo and Kim, and Rosie and Albert. Could the movie been produced with Rosie and Albert as just a married couple, still struggling to get a break? Sure, but this angle makes it more fun IMHO.

3. I think if you accept that this movie is a parody of Elvis, the numbers that Birdie do are not meant to be "catchy" but again show what Conrad is composed of. See #1 above.

4. I agree it's not a heavy plot but most musical comedies aren't. What doesn't make sense? Conrad Birdie has been drafted into the Army. Before he goes, Rosie gets Ed Sullivan to agree to let him symbolically kiss a girl and sing a song her fiance will compose. The girl who is to be kissed has just got pinned and her boyfriend is not happy about the situation. The rest follows from this point rather naturally. The only thing I found kind of "Hollywood" was the Birdie entourage coming to small town Ohio and staying with the McAfee family. I don't believe anyone commented on the message boards about this, but I don't know what this really served to advance the plot, etc. I still think this movie is a slightly satirical look at American life and culture left over from the 50's. While technically not at peace, Vietman really hadn't reared its ugly head, JFK and Camelot were in power, men were more concerned about batting averages than racial segregation, girls were more concerned about who's dating whom, everyone who wanted a job, had a job, etc.

[–] boxerrebellion 10 years ago

It's not really stated how big Sweet Apple is, but it's quite possible that if it wasn't the County Seat, there were no hotels. Small town USA, especially at the time, wasn't always set up to have 'prestigious' guests.

[–] judith-mcgee1025 14 years ago

My problem with "Bye Bye Birdie" is the tacked-on subplot concerning the Russian conductor and the chemical compound Feed Up Speed Up. It's completely unnecessary and derails the movie. I prefer the television adaptation which was shown on ABC in the 1980s which followed the Broadway script.

[–] cwg2005a 13 years ago

I think this parody of teen dreams as seen and filtered by 1950s adults is a good precursor to "Grease" ...

I note, however, in response to an above note, that actually Buddy Holly was the "first" real rocker, and in fact he probably actually was the inventor of the genre (Peggy Sue, etc), transforming blues, jazz, and early folk into an electric circus of dance. Presley was a blues/gospel singer who evolved into adding touches of rock, but only touches.

[–] Lt_Zogg 11 years ago

Now that you bring it up, yeah, it was pretty flimsy. But it was topical, and typical for an Ed Sullivan show.

[–] boxerrebellion 10 years ago

Actually, that is one of my favorite parts of the movie - in fact when I saw it recently for the first time in decades, it was the only scene I recognized - in fact, I had thought the ballet scene was part of a Disney movie.

[–] elaineevans7 11 years ago

my problem with this movie is Maureen Stapleton-she plays Mama Peterson one of the most annoying characters in a movie!

[–] SealordJohn 9 years ago

To owen_a_peterson, I have to strongly agree when you originally posted "3. Birdie's numbers sound more like upbeat jazz than rock and roll. I mean sure, Rock and Roll was still rather new at the time, but the musical numbers that meant to be Rock and Roll sound too much like upbeat jazz. At least in the 1995 Made for TV version, they fixed this problem."

While I did enjoy most of this movie, the style of music that Conrad sings is my biggest complaint. While it is true that the script was written before the British Invasion made a significant impact on rock music, the producers still had at least five years of rock and roll styles to influence the songs Conrad sings. Examples include Sam Cooke, Chuck Berry, the Everly Brothers, and even Elvis Presley.

[–] fkronyak 9 years ago

You have to keep in mind that in the early 60s Rock & Roll was not welcome in Broadway musicals. It wasn't until the late 60s that anyone 'dared' to produce a musical with actual Rock music.

[–] Blueghost 8 years ago

I think you all are complaining and whining way too much. I don't care much for the film because I'm not partial to the genre, but as a movie it's okay.

I'm kind of done with movies, but the family liked this film because of its overall message. It was well shot, well edited and otherwise put together. I can't imagine anyone knocking the characters, the story, the editing, or anything else.