MovieChat Forums > The Music Man (1962) Discussion > Harold Hill was not as bad as some peopl...

Harold Hill was not as bad as some people say


The character of Professor Harold Hill has been contraversial since the play first ran. After all he is basically a con-man. But from the tone of the story we know he is a picaresque hero & that we're supposed to like him. The story is about the redemptive power of love, so he has to be fallen to a certain extent, just so he can be redeemed. Yet some people still make an awfully big deal about his con-man ways.
To address this I want to note that when it comes to being a con-man, he was no Bernie Madoff. In fact, he wasn't even much of a con-man. He collects money for the band uniforms & instruments true, but both are delivered! A real con-man would have skipped town right away. The only real misrepresentation was the lessons, and at least he attended band practice, even if it was just to oversee "The Think System".
In other words, Harold Hill wasn't such a bad character after all & I think it's time this issue went away.
Any thoughts on this?























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He was a stinker for sure, but not a soulless creep. I think it's a tough role to play, because the actor has to make the audience like him and hate him at the same time...tough!

Taking back IMDB message boards....one ignored Troll at a time.

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Remember that he was also involved in "getting next" to the librarian, who was quite comely. One assumes that the piano teachers or librarians in other towns weren't. I think he stayed longer in River City than he did elsewhere, hence opening himself up to actually having to come up with a performing band rather than just providing instruments and instruction books.

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he did though, get them the instruments and instruction, instead of just taking all the money and running.

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And as Harold tells Winthrop near the end of the movie, "I always think there's a band, kid," makes us realize he is not all bad, and really WANTS to be a bandleader badly. Also, that he spends time with Winthrop, basically teaching him how to be a boy, for whatever reason, makes him sympathetic. That he doesn't leave River City, and stays with Marian to face the music, makes him a prime candidate for redemption, plus the fact that he REALLY is in love with her. That and the band playing a godawful version of the "Minuet In G," totally vindicates him.

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[deleted]

I once read an article about The Music Man that described Harold Hill (and I'm paraphrasing here) as a man with a problem, and he gets around it by conning people.


So true, and Meredith Willson hints that something went horribly wrong in Harold's life, especially in his childhood. The character of Harold may be a con artist... but Willson also made him sweet, considerate and gentle. I always felt he identified with Winthrop because he too had some REAL problems, starting as a young boy.

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Yet his ability to love had to come from somewhere, so he must have experienced/learned that in his formative years, as well. :)


And his ability to inspire loyalty from someone like Marcellus, who risked all for him, and was loyal to him to the end. I always thought Harold's father must have been a low-life, and maybe his mother was the decent upright one, who knows?

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On the footbridge, Marian told him she knew there would be many more ports of call and that she didn't expect a traveling salesman to stay put, and then later she told Harold he didn't owe her anything and urged him to leave before he was caught.



And, right then, even before all hell broke out, we knew Harold would NEVER leave River City. Even after Marce told him the uniforms were there and the con was basically over, Harold was in no hurry to leave. First tip off. Marian would not force him to do anything, and did not try to change him, and the decision was his alone. In the end, even Mrs. Paroo, Marcellus, and Winthrop urged him to leave. It's amazing that Marian begged him to leave in the end, as she was in on the con, too, as I have said before. That he stayed made it very powereful and moving, especially to the audience, who were drained emotionally by the end of the movie.

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U & your's' may have been drained
hair cut 100
but one need only remember
"in the end the rain comes down"
& 2 breath
K?

WoW
K?



O & as 2 the thread
toward the end they did not want 2 c him "get away with it"
rather
they did not want 2 c him suffer 4 his love 4 a woman
or was is all womens
what he loved

one can c many manny thangs here
depending on what one is looking 4
K?

sprecken zee?

O & as 2 the "think system"
this is expecially poinient after having watched "men who stare @ goats"

or "suspect Zero"

wait wait
a musical version of "suspect Zero"

that'd be so so so kewl





scissors 2 banjo
banjo scissoroo

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Don't deal with the CLASSIC film genre much, do you ? (And yes,I checked your profile.)

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I'm pretty sure I was commenting MAINLY concerning the 'unfathomability' of the message prior to mine. Sorry if I was unclear.

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[deleted]

This has been a fascinating and well-thought-out exchange regarding Harold's character and backstory, and I've enjoyed reading it.

My own take is that he's a lovable rogue who never let his conscience bother him until meeting his match in Marian, Winthrop, and the townspeople of River City.

In Marian, he's found someone who is more than just a pretty face who will melt at his advances. Remember, she resists him at first, and knows from the start he's a con artist, which makes her more of a challenge. The more she resists, the harder he tries, and, as he says at the end, for the first time in his life, he got his foot caught in the door. While he was pursuing his con game, love came in the window.

With Winthrop, perhaps he sees a bit of himself, but I don't think there's anything inherent in the script to prove it. I think he initially sees him as a way to get to Marian (and get more money out of the Paroos), but he eventually comes to like the boy, and somehow just knows instinctively how to draw him out of his shell. Winthrop needs a male role model in his life since the death of his father, and with the attention Harold pays him (even if it's a ploy), he begins to blossom.

Again, he's not a soulless creep or a money-grubbing cheater. He does deliver the instruments and the uniforms, he just has no intention of sticking around and teaching the boys anything. It's strongly hinted that he's morally deficient, and yet all of it's played so light-heartedly (and by such a charmer as Robert Preston!) that you don't really think about the broken hearts and possibly ruined lives he's left in his wake.

The redemptive power he brings to everyone in River City; transforming a town full of petty, gossiping, quarreling, narrow-minded individuals into a united, fun-loving, accepting community mitigates the con. It's not just Harold Hill who is redeemed; it's everyone. Truly a heart-warming and delightful show.

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I agree FedoraDave, this has been a great thread. My feeling has always been that the entire movie is sold on one, single line: "I always think there's a band, kid." That vindicates the character and allows us to forgive him. If the actor cannot sell that line, while I still enjoy the show, the production fails. I never got to see Preston on stage but I often wondered how successfully he delivered that line every night.

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It's rather telling of Harold's character that even when he's fleecing his customers he doesn't charge more than they can afford. Before Mayor Shinn remembers he doesn't have a son, he's willing to pay Hill's fee of $17. Yet Harold charges the lady with the twins only $7 for the same thing.





"Tell me about the squares, Buzzie."

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True, He gave them their moneys worth and an idea that the townsfolk could develop on their own.

Love The Oldies

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Harold Hill, unknown to the authors of the play, might probably have been a sociopath in reality, but since the dynamic of a sociopath weren't understood well back then, they viewed the stereotypical salesman as just a conman with a strong libido. Sociopaths typically have multiple affairs and understand the difference between right and wrong, but don't have any real regard for the rules unless it benefits them.

Ergo Harold Hill was a kind of mix of normal person and someone who has psychopathy. The fantasy is that some woman beat him at his own game, and that he realizes his mistake and marries the woman. In reality he would have married her, continued being a salesman, and continued to have affairs and double deal with other people. Ergo the play is a fantasy that we enjoy.

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Ya know people, it's a musical. It took Meredith Willson 8 years to get everything right- but it's still a fantasy. You over analyze art and then you lose the art. This musical, as a composition, is considered one of the top 5 (legit stage)musicals. Don't over analyze- just enjoy.

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I see what you mean, but I think the beauty of all art forms is that there is always room for interpretation, varying tastes, multiple viewpoints, etc. Meredith Wilson crafted a masterful musical with a rather complex protagonist. Harold Hill is both kind and deceiving, both lovable and maddening, and I think the complexities are PART of the reason this musical is as great as it is.

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Just imagine if Frank Sinatra had played Hill! The "pyscho" qualities would've been front and center.

"May I bone your kipper, Mademoiselle?"

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Yes, he isn't a bad guy completely, but it is wrong still for him to fleece towns with false promises of band instruments.

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Ya know what, you people really need to ease up a little. TMM is a very lovely, wonderful, somewhat magical musical fantasy that came from the heart and mind of Mr. Willson; and the character of H. Hill was further embellished by the talent & creativity of Mr. Preston. Just relax, and enjoy.

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Except it wasn't the instruments that were the scam. THe only scam was the teaching and organization of a band. THe uniforms and instruments were always legitimate.

~Right Here in River City~

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