Something I've never understood about the whole debacle in 91/92 that Leno would succeed Carson on the Tonight Show, and not Letterman (Carson's choice). Leno was the guest host for 5 YEARS, hosting the show on Mondays and Fridays if I'm not mistaken (I was a little kid in the late 80s, never watched Carson first-run). Makes sense that Leno would take the reigns when Johnny left, no? Why was Carson furious that Letterman wasn't his successor?
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Just because Jay had been guest hosting for 5 years prior to Carson's retirement doesn't mean that he was Johnny's choice for successor. Johnny had a much closer relationship with David Letterman than Leno, and Dave had been a leading candidate to take over the Tonight Show long before Leno ever entered the picture. Just a little history lesson:
Johnny seemed to take an instant liking to Letterman since Dave's first appearance on the Tonight Show in 1978. After Dave's stand-up routine, Johnny invited him over to the desk to chat, something he rarely did with comedians on their first appearance. In fact, Dave made such an impression on Johnny that he was asked to guest host the Tonight Show after only making two appearances. Dave then went on to guest host The Tonight Show more than 50 times from 1979 to 1981 (taking a break from guest hosting for a few months in 1980 when he hosted his own short-lived morning talk show), as well as frequently appearing as a guest. When Carson's contract was up for renewal in 1981, there was speculation that he might retire, and Dave was considered by many at the time as the leading candidate to take over The Tonight Show. [By contrast, Jay Leno made his first appearance on The Tonight Show in 1977, and impressed Johnny enough to be invited back several times. However, in his final '70s appearance in 1979, he bombed so badly that he was not invited back on the show for another 7 years.]
When Johnny did not retire in the '80s, NBC gave Dave his own late night talk show, Late Night with David Letterman, produced in part by Johnny Carson's own production company. In addition to hosting his own show, Dave made frequent appearances on Carson's show throughout the '80s and early '90s, and Johnny even appeared on Dave's show (a rarity for Carson). During this period the friendship and mutual respect between the two men continued to grow. Despite the fact that The Tonight Show had other "regular" guest hosts in the '80s (namely Joan Rivers and later Jay Leno) it was apparent that Dave was still Johnny's choice for successor.
The difference between Dave's relationship with Johnny and Jay Leno's relationship with Johnny is clearly observed by watching the tribute shows that the two men presented after Johnny died. Dave's tribute show was filmed with wonderful clips of he and Johnny interacting together; Jay's show was filled with generic Tonight Show clips and no clips of he and Johnny together. It's not hard to guess which man Johnny regarded as his successor.
I think "furious" may be an overstatement. The situation with Leno is similar to the situation with Joan Rivers. She and Johnny enjoyed a good working relationship for a while and she was the first person to ever become "regular" or exclusive guest host. This led to speculation that she was for sure a front runner to replace Carson. However, as time went on the relationship between Carson and Rivers soured, and it was then no surprise that she didn't get the job. Leno's relationship with Carson also went sour toward the end and I've read that Leno applied some pressure to get Carson to retire sooner than he might have preferred and Carson resented that. With a sour relationship, it's no surprise that Leno did not get Carson's vote.
That's a pretty good summation of Carson on Leno. Rivers said in a recent PBS special on Carson words to the effect that television was a dog-eat-dog, stab-in-the-back business, and the only thing to wonder was when either someone was going to do it to you, or you were going to do it to someone else. She just beat Carson to the punch when she made her ill-fated decision to jump ship for her own show. Of course, Rivers found out, real fast, exactly how vindictive and much power Carson really had when she couldn't get decent guests for fear that they'd never be on Carson's show again.
It's been said that Carson knew all along of NBC's plan to use Leno instead of Letterman and, in fact, that was the very reason he retired. Although Leno and Letterman were both accomplished comedians, Letterman had established himself as being much more adept at show hosting, as well as being more clever and creative. To me, Letterman was fresher and funnier than Carson ever was (at least during Letterman's early television years).
Considering Carson's ego, it would actually make sense that Carson would 'not' want someone who had the potential of eventually overshadowing Carson's Tonight Show legacy (like Letterman). In that regard, I can see Carson being perfectly happy with NBC installing someone as the Tonight Show host who, while not necessarily bombing, certainly would have no chance of ever equaling what Carson had accomplished. And that's pretty much exactly how Leno's tenure on The Tonight Show has played out.
I don't know about that roguefort. Letterman appeals to a niche market. He's one of those "love 'im or hate 'im" types that leaves most of the audience puzzled, but with strong loyalty from those that appreciate him. That's totally opposite of Carson's near universal appeal, so that alone guarantees that Letterman would never approach Carson's popularity.
Leno chose to go mostly political on The Tonight Show and that's going to have the same niche effect. However let me tell you about seeing him live here in Houston. I was never a Leno fan and I do not follow politics at all, but his stand-up routine was so funny I couldn't believe it. I would say for the 1st 70 minutes I couldn't breath it was so funny. On some level that tells me that the guy has a lot of talent lurking there and also that he can reach non-political people like me. Of course in hindsight we see that he didn't use that.
That's a pretty good point about Letterman, and it brings up an interesting topic on how these guys (Letterman, Leno, and Carson) deal with difficult or unruly guests who are, for whatever reason, unmanageable and uncooperative.
There have been famous episodes on Letterman where the guest (Joaquin Phoenix, Crispin Glover, Farrah Fawcett) was acting bizarrely. Letterman quickly laid into them and, in Glover's case, actually got up from the desk and left. They immediately cut to commercial and, when they came back, the guest (Glover) was gone. All of these episodes got broadcast.
But I can't recall ever seeing or hearing about anything like that on Carson or Leno. Surely, through all these years, there have been inebriated or just plain goofy guests on their shows, too, but you never saw or heard of a single one.
In fact, the only thing that comes close is the show where Ed McMahon was obviously drunk and arguing with Johnny back in the early seventies. I suspect that since it was so funny, everything was fine and it's a classic clip. But if it had went sour (i.e., wasn't funny or fit for television), it's unlikey anyone would ever have heard of it. But McMahon would have been history.
That's not to say that Carson didn't have a mean streak. His battles with his wives and his demeanor while drinking are quite well-known. But, evidently, he had a lot more self-control than Letterman with his guests because you absolutely never saw a 'real' or 'serious' angry Johnny Carson on the show. With Letterman, if he's pissed at a guest, you'll see it.
In that regard, Leno is more like Carson, except Leno is probably not nearly as mean-spirited or have the same down-deep self-loathing that Carson had. Carson and Leno would cover for a bad guest to save a show (or would simply not broadcast the show and run a rerun). Letterman won't do that, and you'll see whatever stupid stunt a guest pulls, too.
With the other two, they simply would never have the guest on the show again, and likely do whatever they needed to end the guest's career in another way. At least you can bet that's what Carson would do.
rogueforte: I think most of what you see on those shows is script. Joaquin Phoenix and McMahon I'm positive were script. Fawcett, yeah, she was bombed out of her mind. I haven't seen the Glover incident. A famous Letterman incident that was later revealed to be script was Andy Kaufman's smackdown with the wrestler.
Regarding cutting to commercial, in Dec 2010 we attended the taping of the Tonight show. My wife made air in a one-on-one handshake with Leno. I was amazed to find that what we saw in the taping was exactly what we saw on the air later. The taping lasted exactly one hour, just like the show that aired. During the commercial breaks, Leno would introduce the band and they would begin to play, and they would continue to play the entire 3 or 4 minutes. During that time Leno would consult with the producer or review cue-cards. After the 4 minutes, the cameras would start to tape and Leno would thank the band as they finished the song and the show would continue. So, at least the show that we saw was taped as if live. It seems really odd to me to do it that way but it helps them knock out the entire show in just one hour. During the breaks about 20 security guards would make themselves obvious and stand in strategic places in the aisles and on stage, watching in case anyone tried to rise from their seat and approach the stage or otherwise make trouble. Leno would make a stern face that discouraged anyone in the audience from trying to smile, wave, or speak to him. He would also turn his back on the audience and talk to the producer. If a celebrity was at his desk, he might privately lightly chat some during the break but mostly would review his cue cards. He allowed the audience to give him an on-air high-five at the start of the show, but otherwise never spoke to us nor acknowledged us. During his monologue he played exclusively for the camera just as soon as the applause signs went off. At the end of the show he immediately left the stage and called out over his shoulder to us "Thanks for coming." He seemed as if he would rather not have been there.
As for your cynical views on Carson's means-spiritedness and willingness to destroy someone's career, I think that's way overexaggerated. I bet the number of people that Carson blackballed is zero. He certainly didn't stop Joan Rivers from having a successful 20 year career based on trashing him. I just did a google search on "Did Carson blackball people?" and all I got was Joan Rivers trashing him.
I can think of one person's career Carson destroyed: Uri Geller. I'll admit that seemed a little mean, especially coming from a former magician.
I think your experience on the Leno show sums up how any of those guys have to be, and not because they're particularly mean. They just don't have the time to be friendly. That's the thing that everyone needs to remember: Carson might have enjoyed being 'the king', but it was (and remains) a dog-eat-dog business, and he (and Leno and Letterman) dealt with it accordingly.
Carson was a talented comedian but he didn't get to be 'the king' and stay on the air for over three decades by being a nice guy. Someone on the PBS special put it best when Carson was in the contentious 1979 contract negotiations with Fred Silverman at NBC: "You aren't going to bluff Johnny Carson. Carson has a spine made of steel".
Likewise, anytime Carson had some competition, he'd do what he had to do to stay on top. While there were a few exceptions, the main criteria on whether a guest got on the show (or came back) was real simple: how did they effect ratings and the sponsors, i.e., how hard was it for Carson to get them to be entertaining. If he didn't have to work real hard, they might come back. Otherwise, adios.
That's why I was wondering about those few who seemed like they'd be interesting, but Carson blackballed (Ralph Nader, Richard Ney, and the aforementioned Uri Geller). Nader probably had too much potential to pull a Harvey Pekar on Letterman and call Carson out on NBC's business dealings. As Pekar found out, that was one of the absolute forbidden topics since it really goes to the core of ratings and sponsors. I don't know if he ever got back on Letterman after that.
Ney was a financial advisor so I wonder if maybe he'd advised Carson on a business deal that went sour. But Geller, well, he must have just done something that really rubbed Carson the wrong way. But, like I said, 99% of the time, so long as Carson didn't have to work too hard to make a guest interesting or, more importantly, they didn't negatively impact ratings or sponsors, they had a shot of either being on the show or coming back.
If you haven't seen it, the movie The King of Comedy does a superb job of how the late night talk show world operates (at least how I would imagine it). Jerry Lewis as a Johnny Carson-type character (who turned down the role) is at his finest. Fred de Cordova, The Tonight Show's longtime director/producer, has a major supporting role. You can't get much more authentic than that.
Larry, it's called "live to tape" when they tape a talk show in the same time as it is on the air. That's how pretty much all talk shows have been done since tape was used in television.
I've been to tapings of Leno, Letterman, and Conan. Leno's was the most unpleasant, Conan's was the most pleasant, while Letterman was somewhere in the middle. Leno's was just like you described. He does NOT want to be there. Why he keeps doing it is a mystery to me? When he does interviews, he doesn't even look at the guests. When he does his monologue, he doesn't look at the audience. Why does he do it?
The security guard thing I kind of understand because there was an incident a few years when a crazy ex-girl of Colin Farrell's walked onto the stage. (It didn't air) So I think they ramped up the security after that.
Conan actually talked to the audience, ran into the audience and gave a guy a hug. He brought another guy on to the stage and did a sketch with him. When it was over, Conan chatted with the guy a little and the man walked back to his seat of his own accord. No escort, no one shuttling him away. It was a very fun experience. The odd thing is he adamantly refused to do that kind of stuff when he hosted The Tonight Show. I guess he realized NBC was right in that regard.
Letterman talked to the audience beforehand. But it was right after his son was born and he was clearly exhausted so he didn't talk much. I hear he normally chats with the crowd for a while. During the breaks, they showed classic clips of earlier episodes which only reminded me that Letterman doesn't do any of that fun stuff now.
George Carlin: It's all bullsh-t and it's bad for ya.
During the breaks, they showed classic clips of earlier episodes which only reminded me that Letterman doesn't do any of that fun stuff now.That really says it all. The writing on those shows is everything. The best Letterman shows seem to be the ones when Merrill Markoe was there. But even with fresh stuff, those old guys' attitudes seem to really suck. Now, it just seems like they're going through the motions. I've tried watching current Leno and Letterman shows. Leno lasts a few seconds, Letterman maybe a few more, then I have to switch to something else.
"The taping lasted exactly one hour, just like the show that aired."
Ed McMahon said on his interview on the Archive of American Television (part 4 or 5) that the Tonight Show was performed as if it was live even though it was being taped.
Carson also had the clocks set to 11:30 even it it was 5pm. Carson did not want to have the mentality that the show can be interrupted and have a do-over. The show was meant to be live and if there was a flub, it went on the air.
McMahon also said that if an interview went of into a controversial direction, he would start a clock and let the show run over equal to the time that they wanted to cut.
I think hosting at 12:30 outranks the 11:30 guest host.
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