What was the RANGE of an accurate Rflle Shot?
I am referring to American versus German rifles.
shareHey RS,
A lot of what you are asking depends on several factors: ability of the shooter, ballistics of the cartridge, and the firearm in which the cartridge is used.
No matter how much skill you have, most folks simply cannot hit a man sized target at 100 yards with a Colt 1911 caliber .45 auto pistol. Take that same pistol cartridge and use it in a Thompson sub-machine gun, and most folks will be able to hit their target at 50 yards or more. Pistol cartridges, whether used in a pistol or a rifle, are intended for short work and are not expected to engage targets at 100 or more yard distances.
The American M-1 Garand and the German K-98 Mauser used .30 caliber cartridges (30-06 and 8mm respectively) with essentially similar ballistic capabilities. Both rifles in the hands of skilled marksmen could engage targets at 300 yards and have ample power to kill at that range. In fact, however, most soldiers are not skilled enough to hit their targets at 300 yards with these battle rifles.
Bolt action rifles such as the 1903 Springfield and the 8mm Mauser which are specially tuned and provided with scopes for sniper use could be used by really skilled and trained marksmen to score kills easily at 300 yards, and fairly well even out to 500 yards. Today, skilled marksmen can use special rifles firing .50 caliber Browning Machine Gun (BMG) cartridges and extend their expected kill range to more than 1000 yards.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile
Hi Dave,
Commenting on accuracy out to 300 yards, when I was in Army Basic Training back in 1966, I trained with an M-14 rifle. Pop up human targets were used. Once zeroed, I could hit a 175 meter human target(~190 yds) rather easily. I was also fairly good at hitting the 300 meter human targets(~330 yds), but I don't recall ever hitting the 350 meter(~380 yds) human target. The whole time I was on active duty, I never used any kind of telescopic sight. All my firing was done with open, metallic(iron sights?). If this is of any help.
I qualified on the M-14 with pop-up targets too, in Feb-Mar 1967.
There was basic training company competition, and although I had shot Expert with the M-14 at West Point, the summer basic and 1 semester I was there, I was falling badly behind doing so for my Basic Training company.
There was a Southern Reservist - Jim Anderson off a red clay farm in Mississippi - in the rifle pit next to me, and he had already reached Expert, literally not missing a shot! ... with lots left over.
I noticed after that that when I fired at my pop-ups, he was firing, and sometimes mine dropped a millisecond sooner than I thought they should. I also noticed his had started not dropping at all.
Nothing was said, and I "shot Expert." :-)
Are you looking for the average range or the extreme range?
I've never been in the service, but I did shoot an M-1 Garand twice and an M-1 Carbine once with the Meade Rod and Gun Club. The Garand was shot at 200 yards and the Carbine at 100 yards, but being a glorified pistol cartridge I'm told it wasn't that accurate much over 100 yards, but I still want one like Lt. Hanley's, although they are now scarce and a bit expensive -- I saw one at a gun show and even though my credit card had the space on it, I couldn't bring myself to spend two grand on it, even with the magazine pouches on the stock!.
The first time I shot the Garand we were re-creating the Maryland National Guard's training for WWII using WWII-era style targets, including a man shape with the outline of a German helmet at the top of the silhouette for the last rapid-fire sequence. There was a 20 mph or better crosswind that day. We didn't have time to move back to 300 yards, but when they scaled the scores based on what we shot I was told I'd have qualified during WWII. BTW, I was not near the top in score, so I'd say that 200 yards would be a minimum distance for an accurate shot with an M-1 Garand, and 100 yard for the Carbine.
If you watched Saving Private Ryan you saw that the American sniper had a bolt-action 1903 Springfield rifle with a scope.
On Germany's Eastern Front the Soviets used the bolt-action Mosin-Nagant 91/30 in both rifle and carbine variants. I have two rifles and a carbine. The rear sights on the rifles adjust for up to 2000 meters, the carbine to 1000 meters. I can't personally attest to how accurate these sights are at the extreme, but there is a YouTube video showing someone making hits on a metal target at something like 1160 yards. I don't remember if it was using iron sights or a scope. The Soviets took standard 91/30s that shot well and added a scope and zeroed them in. This was the type of rifle used at Stalingrad, as shown in the movie Enemy at the Gates, although I read that the scope they used in the movie is the later PU model of the scope. It was still the same basic rifle. At 100 yards, my first and only time out so far, one of my targets shows what I call six dead Nazis (in the black), four wounded (in the white), and five with the Bejesus scared out of them (on paper but outside of any of the rings). I think another target had ten dead. OK for the first time out, shooting from sandbags. (I did have a recoil pad.)
In the Winter War between Finland and the Soviet Union, the Finnish sniper Simo Häyhä http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 is credited with 505 confirmed kills in 100 days using a Finnish carbine version of the 91/30 and open iron sights, not a scope. The article doesn't say at what distance his kills were made. I sometimes think that if the Winter War hadn't ended when it did and if Simo Häyhä hadn't been shot (he did survive), there may not have been enough Soviet soldiers to defend Stalingrad. ;-)
The Sniper article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper#World_War_II on Wikipedia has info on German sniper weapons of WWII. Their scopes were calibrated from 100 to 800 meters and in some cases to 1000 or 1200 meters.
Mr. DavidWile,
You know your stuff. I know, because I know my stuff too. But I think you have an edge on me in some of the details. You also write very well. It was a pleasure reading your post.
Tony
Hey Mr. Tinkerer,
Thank you for some very kind words. It is nice to see some plain old civil conversation on internet sites.
I used to have a fair number of handguns, rifles, and shotguns, and I used to reload for all of them. In fact, I also used to cast my own bullets for about twenty of them. I was never a great marksman, and never shot at a target over 300 yards away. The older I got, the worse my eyes became, and my shooting ability suffered commensurately.
About 1970, I built a bolt action rifle on a Yugo Mark X action with a premier Douglas heavy barrel. It certainly was not intended for lugging in the woods. I used walnut wood to make a heavy beaver-tailed forearm, and from the beginning it was intended for bench rest shooting. At my best, I could usually get 1.5 inch groups at 300 yards, but that was long ago. I have had a number of friends who could get smaller groups than I, but we all have our limitations. I should also mention I was shooting special match target bullets I had loaded.
Neither of my two daughters nor any of my four grandchildren have any interest in shooting or hunting, so I had an auction and sold over sixty guns in 2011, and I sure do know what sellers' remorse is all about. I miss each and every one of them, and I wish I would have had kids who would have wanted to have them.
I used to work for the Army and the Marines, and I spent a good bit of time watching their shooting teams work. Believe me, those guys are very, very good at their shooting, and the average soldier simply does not come close to them in shooting ability. Then again, combat rifleman is not expected to be hitting targets at 300 yards and way beyond - that is why they have the really good guys for the long range shooting.
Again, I thank you for the kind words.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile