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An Uncomfortable Viewing in USA, May 2006


Judgement at Nuremberg has long been a favorite film of mine.

It has its flaws, I think: much as I love Burt Lancaster, and think he understood both the film and the emotional development of his character in the story, I have never liked this role for him: it's just not his part. It's a bit like his performance in the Rose Tattoo: he's so wonderful, you hate to say it, but you have to admit that you don't really believe that he's a Sicilian American, and you don't really believe that he's the dopey clown which the script clearly makes him--and in spite of that, his warmth and beauty make you say, oh, okay, I'll make the mental adjustment, and pretend he smells more of garlic than he does.

In the same way, in this film, I just can't get myself to view him as a German, and think that it is actually quite instructive, for students of acting who wish to perfect their nationality mannerisms, to compare the way Lancaster raises his voice, in the film, and the way Schell does his yelling: very different, indeed!

The same can be said, I suppose, of Judy Garland, who also cannot make me believe she is German, but of course, her performance is so moving and so completely dedicated in all other ways, that it is easier to put this objection aside.

I imagine that a few fans of the film are already fuming at my having said this, but I would ask them, between puffs of angry breath, to consider that I do not level the same criticism at Montgomery Cliff: in spite of whatever difficulties he had, at that point in his career, I understand that he was a meticulous actor, who went over every syllable, every gesture, and if you watch his performance very carefully (because it's very hard to view it, technically, since it is so easy to get swept up in the emotion of it!), you will see how carefully he crafts every single movement of his hands, to make it the way a German man of that generation would speak--very, very different from his gestures when he plays an American character!

I began by saying that this was an uncomfortable viewing for me: late last night, I noticed the film was being broadcast on television (Turner Classic Movies channel in the U.S.), and couldn't resist staying up late to enjoy it again.

What struck me more than anything else, however, is how very applicable the theme of the film is to our current concerns in the United States, regarding the so-called "war on terror" and what we should be doing to protect and preserve ourselves. When Spencer Tracy delivers the verdict of the tribunal, his eloquent and perfectly performed speech indicts and condemns some of the things that we are doing (or, depending on your political and philosophical views, at least raises serious questions about it), and my face was blushing and stinging with guilt and awe, along with Herr Janning's, in recognition of sin.

"Survive as what?!"--I suddenly realized that this phrase, which has been ringing as a refrain in my head, since the disclosure of the outrages at Abu Ghraib prison, and my learning of some of the other extreme measures my government has taken for my safety and survival--I suddenly realized that this phrase was reverberating for me because I had seen this film, and it had made such an impression on me. I had forgotten that this argument from the verdict had been where I learned this simple principle of conducting the life of a nation.

I think it makes it all the more worth a viewing, these days, to help us determine what we are doing right; and what we are doing that is very, very wrong.

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the disclosure of the outrages at Abu Ghraib prison

I suppose Sadaam's outrages are never worth noticing and only the prisoners in Iraq that support Sadaam are worth comiserating.

I think you need to correct your inferior value system. Who is murderer and who is executioner in Iraq? And Dammit, never confuse the two.

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This is exactly the problem revealed in the movie.

Saddam was a dictator who ruled by force.
The USA is supposed to stand for freedom and equal justice.

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What a movie to make you think about the USA of today.

I think Hans Rolfe makes a good point when referring to Hiroshima. Where is American morality? If we were to have lost the war, would our American leaders be held in Japan for war crimes? Would they be guilty? Or were they acting in the best interest of our country?

Look at today. The Patriot Act. The commander and chief steamed rolled over the Constitution of the United States. Warrantless wire tapping, warrantless arrests, detainment without counsel, warrantless searches. And don't think it is not happening to US citizens. What about those detainees in Guantanomo Bay Cuba? It's amazing how the Executive Branch of our government controls our Judicial Branch. and as the film says......We did it because we loved our country.

Are we any different than the Germans? They seen the trains carrying the Jews. We see the pictures of the "detainees" (who have never been tried)

I am as American as apple pie. I love my country. But I dont like whats going on. Like most of the German people thought---What can i do?
Am I guilty because I'm an American?

The difference is.....I won't be sterilized or condemned for writing this opinion as the Germans were.................or will I?

God Bless America "My country, right or wrong"

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Herr Rolfe didn't complete the quote:

"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

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Good point.

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If you love your country giving up some of your rights is sometimes required, you should know that.

If you love your country giving up your life is sometimes required, you should know that.

If you love your country, sacrifices are just a matter of priority and any sacrifice is then, of course, not a sacrifice but a "choice" and a "contribution".

The greatest weapon a country has is "patriotism" and not a gun.

Your lack of support and your "fears" mean that you should probably get a gun.

Remember, like Bush said...in the final analysis "you are either with us or against us."

Your freedom of speech in favor of the opponent is only granted as a "right" so that if the enemy wins and the country occupied the enemy but new rulers will be less fierce on the inhabitants of what used to be the United States. There are groups in the U.S. who only exist to do just that! Groups 'outside' of that umbrella remain suspect.

This should help explain to you why Nazi Germany and Hitler's Regime can bear no resemblance. Dissension was not allowed and any sentence spoken to criticize the Nazi regime was rewarded with a noose.

Your motives for action and response to the war, however, remain open and available for investigation and always have been and always will be. Giving aid and comfort to the enemy. aid such as knitting afghans for the prisoners at Abu Ghraib, have always been "treasonous". Investigating citizens or legal immigrants in our country talking to potential enemies in another country with links to the opponent country, which can be every country not involved in the Iraq war right now (Germany, France, Spain, Russia, China, Canada, Mexico, etc), is not only legal but mandatory and even "to be expected".

I believe that anyone who can not "understand" this is obviously not of good intent and should be investigated to the fullest extent. I'm sure the people at the top feel the same way.

I believe this explains the discomfort you feel, I'd be that uncomfortable too if my motives were as naked as yours.

It concerns me that you two don't know any of this yet still make your comments.

The paranoia you feel is justified.

Have a nice day!




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“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin

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That certainly doesn't apply here!

We don't want people to give up "talking" to the enemy.

We just want to listen while they do it.

You may have the "right" but others have a "right" to respond.

Certainly you must admit Ann Coulter has a right to call the "Jersey Girls" "witches" if she wants to do so? And people have the right to yell at her for insulting these 911 widows.

And yes, the CIA has the right to listen in on overseas calls...that is, until this one judge ruled against it. Unfortunatly, it was found she had links through contribution to the organization who claimed illegality of Bush's program. Her ruling will be overturned.

In the meantime, you have to trust our government isn't wasting it's manpower listening to granny talking to sonny boy overseas.

Do you mean to state that our Constitution goes overseas to the person we are talking to overseas? Do you mean to imply that America's law are in effect everywhere there is an American?

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Check your facts. It's the NSA doing the WARRANTLESS telephone spying on American citizens, not the CIA. It began BEFORE 9-11.


"......... after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine
the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along,
whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament,
or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always
be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the
peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
It works the same in any country."


-- Hermann Goering

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What is keeping you up at night? What are you up to?

Sorry, the President can authorize the monitoring of international calls without a judge's approval.

Do you think any judge had to approve the interception of Enigma signals during WW2? And that was TWO people talking outside the country?

You seem to forget we are a nation at war and plan on winning.

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Do try to keep up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/17/AR2006081700650.html

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Not on this issue...it's a non-happener and no-brainer. Everything else is just Democrats campaigning. It is, however, interesting to see how defensive the ACLU is about potential terrorists and citizens of other countries over citizens in America.

I thought they were the American Civil Liberties Union...not the Al-Qaida Civil Liberties Union.

I don't approve of unions.

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[deleted]

Hitler didnt like unions either.

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[deleted]

That is a *beep* quote....Ben Franklin never said that.

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well, now that you mention it, what Dr. Franklin actually said was:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." This was in (or addressed to) the Pennsylvania Assembly in reply to the Governor, November 11, 1755.
The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, ed. Leonard W. Labaree, vol. 6, p. 242 (1963).

A variation of the quote above is inscribed on a plaque in the stairwell of the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty: “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Both are, I would think, acceptable.

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The greatest weapon a country has is "patriotism" and not a gun.

I think you missed the lessons of the movie. The laws that allowed millions in Germany to be deprived of basic human rights to the point of torture and murder were based on patriotism. Injustice became enshrined in a legal system in order to promote the "good of the country." It is patriotism that drove those judges to sentence innocent men to death.

Patriotism is kin to racism.

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I've seen a different version.

"My country. In her relations with other nations may she always be right, but right or wrong, may she always prevail."

Not quite as jingoistic as the popular version.

I believe it was Admiral David Farragut, but I could be wrong about that and the quote.


Always remember that YOU are unique. Just like everyone else.

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Very true. But most American citizens who recite this quote sadly most often forget the last part as well.

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They seen the trains carrying the Jews. We see the pictures of the "detainees"

Are you serious? I'm sick of people comparing the prisoners of Gitmo to the Jews in concentration camps.

You know what else gets me? It was America that caused the Trail of Tears, it was America that dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was America that put Japanese in concentration camps, but it was BUSH who caused the ATROCITIES at Gitmo. Atrocities that are somehow on the same level as the extermination of the Jews and other groups of people during WWII.

Nothing bothers some people...not even flying saucers

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The examples differ only in degree, not in kind. Both are reprehensible; whether one or the other is worse isn't the question under discussion.


"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde

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I don't know. 759 detainees, some guilty, some innocent of crimes, allegations of torture. I'm not defending that or saying every German is guilty of compliance, but does that really compare to millions of complete innocents slaughtered with gas or in ovens? Offshore imprisonment/torture vs. genocide on a scale 1000x greater happening right in your own country.

Hiroshima was bombed because statistical experts asserted that a long protracted war would kill countless more people on both sides than dropping one bomb (well, two to be safe). The bombing was in the best interest of everyone (but don't tell that to the dead of Hiroshima or Nagasaki). Whether you agree with that or not, murdering people based on race, religion, sexual preference, etc... really isn't in the best interest of any country, no matter how you slice it.

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Lancaster: He was more symbolic than anything, and was cast symbolically, as the one actor whom the American public could look up to and trust saying the things that he did. The fact that he does not fake a German accent is irrelevant in my opinion (it would have been atrocious if he'd tried) -- because what he says, and the way he says it, and the dignity with which he carries himself, is the message. Besides, a judge of that literacy who is that cosmopolitan and the author of that many books, could very well perhaps speak perfect English without a German accent. Also, he needed to appear quite separate and distinct from the blind unrepentant defendants, and his even tone of voice enhanced that. (Anyway, just wanted to offer another point of view.)

U.S.: I, as well, watching the movie tonight, was struck with all the parallels with America today. Certainly a great movie to watch in our time.


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Oh, come on now, you're VERY comfortable in your prejudice against America.
Your citing of the phony "outrages at Abu Ghraib" is a classic example.

"Could be worse."
"Howwww?"
"Could be raining."

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>Your citing of the phony "outrages at Abu Ghraib" is a classic example.

PHONY? Sorry, jack, you're in denial. The outrages were real, and they're documented. But you'll be glad to know that only a few stooges got their wrists slapped, and the higher-ups were unpunished.

The only difference between Hitler and Dubya was that Adolph as a young military man earned a combat medal, whereas Georgie went AWOL. That, and the fact that Hitler never smirked.

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Tracy's speech is ALWAYS relevant and should be kept in mind by all national policy makers in all times and situations.

I don't agree with you about the casting. Lancaster bears a certain gravitas that was necessary in opposition to Tracy. To believe that the man being tried would normally be considered the greatest man in the room required a star power few if any other actor could muster.

I also had no problem with Garland. I do agree that Clift was perfect - it was imo his best performance ever, short though it was. But just because some of the others may not have been as flawless as Clift at his best is not a fault on their part.


"I'll book you. I'll book you on something. I'll find something in the book to book you on."

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