The horrid footage
Oh God that was sickening. Sickening. Was it really from British soldiers when they took over Buchanwald?
shareOh God that was sickening. Sickening. Was it really from British soldiers when they took over Buchanwald?
shareI am formerly known as HillieBoliday.....Member since May 2006.
I remember reading or seeing on a documentary, that the Nazi's also kept records and films of these atrocities.....and they were confiscated by the British Allies during the liberation. After all, the filthy nazi's were arrogant, egotistical, disturbed, demented, deranged and totally without compassion......and wanted to document their work
As horrible, heartbreaking, sickening and evil that footage represents.....I for one am glad that this kind of visual proof exists. It's a lot easier to prove through showing...then trying to convince someone through plain dialogue that these crimes against humanity actually happened.
As hard as it is to believe.....there are black-hearted, big-mouthed entities who continually claim and deny that the Holocaust ever happened! The best way to SHUT THEM UP AND SHOUT THEM DOWN is through these visuals! So...let's just lock the lot of them in a room and loop that footage for them to see over and over and over and over again...I CAN SHOW YOU BETTER THAN I CAN TELL YOU!!
"OOhhhooo....I'M GON' TELL MAMA!"
Thanks for that response. My grandparent's almost entire families were wiped out during the holocaust. I already have the horrifying proof.
shareI am formerly known as HillieBoliday......Member since May 2006.
You are quite welcome. My heart goes out to you and your family. There is really no better proof than those brave souls who did survive to make sure the world hears their stories of pain and triumph over again so that no one can try to erase it or deny it...God Bless You.
"OOhhhooo....I'M GON' TELL MAMA!"
And what a ripple effect it has. Thank you so much:)
shareMy high school offered a film criticism class. We were shown "Night and Fog", which featured similar scenes - not British footage of Buchenwald, but French footage of two Polish camps.
No one in the class was required to watch it. We were warned how bad it was, and anyone who wanted to opt for study hall for that period instead could do so. I don't recall that anyone did. I do remember kids sometimes putting their heads down on their desks when what was on the screen was too much to bear.
I never forgot that movie. Horrible. But I'm glad I saw it. I'm glad my teacher was wise enough to put it before us. And I'm glad the footage exists forever, in the face of the twisted monsters who try to deny this ever happened, or how bad it was.
Wow! Go to the holcast museum in Washington DC that will make you stop and think. Especially when you go to a room full of shoes that the nazis had killed that will get to you emotionally.
shareIt never ceases to amaze me that a supposedly civilized country in the heart of Europe, a center of learning and culture for centuries, could so readily turn into a den of psychopathic, sadistic murderers who could exterminate millions of people in and out of concentration camps, and in the most unfathomably vicious and horrific ways possible.
Thank God not only the Allies who liberated the camps but the Germans themselves left voluminous records, films and other documents that prove beyond doubt what they did and give visual evidence of the consequences of their acts. It's true that a few psychotic right-wing extremists have denied and continue to deny that the Holocaust ever took place, but while they have to ignore the facts to sustain their bigotry and lies the rest of us know the truth, and those truths are preserved all around the world.
blueeyeslionheart13 -- I believe you meant that the shoes shown at the Holocaust museum were from people the Nazis had killed, not "a room full of shoes that the nazis had killed". Even the Nazis didn't kill shoes, though I wouldn't put it past them to somehow try.
Lucky or fortunate may not be the right word, but it is important that there is a documentary record of Germany's Holocaust, slaughter and barbarism to impress upon us the magnitude of the horror.
And yet....conversely, when there is no documented record in film to impress upon the public eye and penetrate into our mindsets, how tragic it then becomes when identical Holocausts committed by other regimes become forgotten and the victims of them become ignored even to the point where their deaths are treated like a colossal afterthought, if at all, when it comes to assessing the Hitler types who were responsible for those acts of barbarism.
How else, could one explain why Stalin's man-made famine in the Ukraine in 1932-33, even before Hitler sent the first Jews to the death camps (though already the Nazi campaigns of discrimination were underway) which was tightly shut off from all outside observers even to the point where the New York Times Moscow reporter Walter Duranty chose to lie to the outside world and won a Pulitzer Prize for it (which the Times has still not apologized for or returned to this day) is mostly forgotten or unknown. Even when a committee of Ukrainians tried to get a compelling documentary about the subject put on television "Harvest Of Despair", PBS refused to run it in the mid-1980s forcing William F. Buckley to turn over an entire episode of "Firing Line" to it so it could at last have an audience. I would note that even though that program managed to find some horrible archival images of what went on there, Vincent Canby of the New York Times in 1984, with a colossally upturned nose dismissed the film as "biased" and an "old-fashioned propaganda film" (I guess the bonds of the Times is thicker than many other things!)
And of course to this day, the figure of Mao Tse-Tung is thought of still more in terms of some kind of colossal figure of greatness and the fact this man was responsible numerically for five times as many deaths as Hitler in a forgotten Holocaust called the Great Leap Forward that no one took any images of doesn't enter the picture when assessing him. If one refers to Mao as a monster mass-murderer, which is accurate based on the statistics, the intelligentsia will play their own game of Holocaust Revisionism and consider such sentiments simple-minded (or put another way, they take the Charlie Brown approach and tell the statistics to shut up)
But it isn't just Communist Hitlers like Stalin and Mao who fare better long-term because of this matter of documentation. How else can we also explain why when we think of Holocausts committed by the Axis powers, the Rape of Nanking doesn't form much of an image in the collective psyche, or the barbarism committed towards American POWs by the Japanese? We at least can be grateful that the SS had no control of the regular POW camps so that American and British flyers didn't suffer the fates that Eastern Europeans and Jews did in the death camps. In Japan though it was always a far different story yet for how many decades to this day have these Holocausts taken a back seat to the alleged American holocaust supposedly perpetrated at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Here is a case where the "documenting" in which our overexposure to the images of what happened there ends up distorting our sense of perspective about the entire war in the Pacific, allowing the Pacific War to not be seen quite through the lens of the "Good War" that is automatically assigned to the fight against Hitler in part because of the powerful images of the Holocaust Hitler committed.
And in microcosm the power of the image can distort further when its just one picture that seemingly tells a simple story that isn't so simple at all as the infamous Eddie Adams photo of Colonel Loan executing the VC prisoner during Tet demonstrated. The simple message of that one picture was a sign of inhumane brutality to play into one side's propaganda message about the war as a whole. But as Eddie Adams always said afterwards, he didn't have any photos of the prisoner's campaigns of butchery and slaughter that had taken place and resulted in his impromptu execution, and he was always furious that his photograph had been used to create a false picture of what had happened (even to the point of stepping in to make sure Colonel Loan wasn't deported from the US after he escaped from the fall of South Vietnam).
Yes, we should be glad that the documented record of Hitler's genocide was left for us to make sure we never forget. But when that is seemingly the thing we need most to make sure we never forget a Holocaust and we aren't willing to accept the realities of other Holocausts from this same era where the documented record is less whole because the ones who perpetrated them were far cagier in that regard, think of the dangerous impact it can have on the collective mindsets of generations to follow who look back and think the madness of mass murder was confined only to a single nation in this era.
I think there are a number of factors that go into how well some things are remembered or recounted.
The Germans were of course notorious for meticulously documenting everything, so the sheer bulk of evidence in many forms makes it plentiful as well as comprehensive. The fact that they lost the war meant that all this material fell out of their hands and into those of people who would preserve and publicize it.
Also, the fact that the Germans live in the heart of Europe, of the western world, makes their history and actions more accessible to the peoples who dominate the global conversation, if you will. These were crimes committed in what would later become known as the "first world", and rightly or wrongly, news, information, history and much of the world's focus is governed by those of us in that "first world". The Nazis are such a notorious historical force, whose effects were mainly felt in that future "first world", that they have become and remain for millions the most immediately recognized epitome of evil.
Unfortunately as you say too many people ignore or wave away some of the less-well-known or -documented crimes. I don't think anyone discounts the Rape of Nanking but westerners tend simply to be less informed about things that didn't occur in parts of the world they don't identify with or know as much about. Again, our "first world" is more Euro-centric than Asia-oriented. (No pun intended.) No one who denounces the Nazis would defend or deliberately suppress the actions of their Japanese allies. The Bataan death march and the like are remembered and denounced. But like the Italian atrocities in Ethiopia or Libya, to many these are "side shows" to the main event, i.e., the war against Hitler -- not because they're less terrible or because anyone excuses them, but simply because, human nature being what it is, people tend to concentrate on the things they most readily remember or relate to.
When it comes to atrocities on the part of Communist regimes, you also have a point. In many instances these are played down by misguided liberal or leftist elements because they have a prejudice in favor of left-wing regimes. In large part this is because right-wing dictatorships specifically truckle in racial or nationalistic policies, touting one nation or race as superior and destined to subjugate others, and being brutally frank about their imperialistic, even murderous, designs. They explicitly attack democracy, freedom and the like. By contrast, leftist dictatorships or philosophies tend to mask their brutality in the language of freedom, brotherhood, the unity of all oppressed peoples and so on. To many this sounds more benevolent or altruistic, and makes it easier for idiots to be gulled by such regimes and defend them even in their cruelest actions. Some people just can't take off the blinders or think for themselves, and this goes for the left and right.
Unquestionably all the atrocities committed by both murderous right-wing regimes and murderous left-wing regimes, at least in the 20th century, are well documented (to varying degrees of course, depending on the era and circumstances). How much anyone is exposed to such evidence is another matter, often determined by who controls the dissemination of history and information, of how it's presented or emphasized, in which part of the world one lives. But at base if people have biases they're not going to be moved by evidence. They'll believe what they want to.
And on that truism, one last thing, about the infamous liar Walter Duranty. Eric, your claims that The New York Times has never apologized for his false reports about the famine, and has refused to return the Pulitzer Prize Duranty "won...for it" (as you put it above), are false.
First, Duranty did not win his Pulitzer for his reports on the Ukrainian famine. He won it for other reporting on the USSR, articles examining why the "Asiatic" Russians could never accept western political structures, why they needed a Tsar or other strongman, how their accustomed societies were communal in nature. Whatever the merit or lack of same in this nonsense, his prize was not won for any of his reporting on the famine.
Second, in the 1990s the Times did open an investigation of Duranty in following publication of a highly critical book about him. Here is the Wikpedia entry on the subject:
In response to Taylor's book, the Times assigned a member of its editorial board, Karl Meyer, to write a signed editorial regarding Duranty's work. In a scathing piece, Meyer said that Duranty's articles were "some of the worst reporting to appear in this newspaper." Duranty, Meyer said, had bet his career on Stalin's rise and "strove to preserve it by ignoring or excusing Stalin's crimes." Four years earlier, in a review of Robert Conquest's The Harvest of Sorrow, former Moscow bureau reporter Craig Whitney wrote that Duranty all but ignored the famine until it was almost over.
In 2003, in response to an international campaign launched by the Ukrainian Canadian Civil Liberties Association, the Pulitzer Board began a renewed inquiry and the Times hired Mark von Hagen, professor of Russian history at Columbia University, to review Duranty's work. Von Hagen found Duranty's reports to be unbalanced and uncritical, and that they far too often gave voice to Stalinist propaganda. In comments to the press he stated, "For the sake of The New York Times' honor, they should take the prize away." The Times sent von Hagen's report to the Pulitzer Board and left it to the Board to take whatever action they considered appropriate. In a letter accompanying the report, Times publisher Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, Jr. called Duranty's work "slovenly" and said it "should have been recognized for what it was by his editors and by his Pulitzer judges seven decades ago."
Ultimately, the administrator of the board, Sig Gissler, refused to rescind the award because "there was not clear and convincing evidence of deliberate deception, the relevant standard in this case."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Duranty)
It was also a fact that at the time of the famine the Times's editorial pages were at odds with Duranty's reporting, on the famine and other things.
I thought your statements were mistaken and misleading but wanted to check first to refresh my memory. Whether what the Times said and did constitutes a formal "apology" or not may be a matter of interpretation, but the paper itself has long and clearly repudiated Duranty, contrary to your frankly false assertion otherwise. If any blame attaches to the un-revoked Pulitzer, it rests with the Pulitzer board itself, not the Times.
Just as your friend William F. Buckley was "forced" (I doubt that) to use his program to show Harvest of Despair, while continually ignoring, suppressing, dismissing or just plain lying about the nature of racial discrimination in the South in the 50s, 60s and 70s and opposing Civil Rights laws (all of which he later acknowledged and apologized for), people do indeed see things through the prism of their own biases. We may not always be able to surmount those, but we can strive to at least be fully informed about the things we declaim -- and denounce.
Hob, you can doubt all you like about Buckley and how "Harvest of Despair" got on the air but it's the truth. The three networks refused to air it, and PBS refused to air it nationally either. Buckley used "Firing Line" so it could get an airing of some kind on PBS and hosted a round-table discussion about the film featuring Soviet historian Robert Conquest, and also gave us Christopher Hitchens seemingly on the verge of suggesting the Ukranians had it coming to them in light of the later collaboration of many Ukranians with Hitler (I don't want to put myself in the shoes of someone who after suffering through the famine who in 1941 might have felt compelled to see German forces as liberators. That's a far more difficult choice to make then, say being an American in the 1930s deciding to join Communist front organizations). You may despise Buckley, but "Firing Line" was a program where viewpoints were always exchanged in an open, serious environment which earned him deserved praise from all ends of the spectrum.
I will gladly stand corrected on some of the technical points regarding Duranty and the Times in recent years (it still won't change Vincent Canby's whitewash in his 1984 review of "Harvest of Despair") but frankly to hear it said that the Times "left it to the Board to take whatever action they considered appropriate" is the supreme exercise in copping out. Okay, acknowledge belatedly what should have been acknowledged decades earlier (2003 is *very* tardy in that respect) but it seems to me that a profile in courage moment for the Times would have been *insisting* that the award be rescinded. On that matter, they chose in effect to do the equivalent of voting "present" which isn't really much in the end. And for the Committee to say that there was no clear and convincing evidence of deliberate deception when the matter of Duranty's slavish devotion to Stalin (whether willingly or because the Soviets had something on him) has long been confirmed by the documented record it's funny how they decide to take the most narrow (or Justice Ives view if you will) approach to justify not rescinding an award that for Ukranians represents an offense on the same order that others do with the symbols of the Confederacy. Professor Von Hagen's advice about how the "honor of the Times" meant it should be taken away was the argument the Times should have had the courage to argue with vigor to the Board and on that they failed miserably.
On the areas where we are in agreement, yes, I will concede that Germany probably would also get a higher level of attention based on its "first world" status though there can be a danger in that line of thinking in that it conceivably assumes that a non-"First World" society is instinctively more prone to acts of barbarism and thus we can be less instinctively shocked by it (which I'm sure is the fault of us all in that respect). And yes, I also agree that the matter of who controls the information disseminated is also important. That especially holds true for why you can take many accredited university courses and end up hearing very little about the Ukraine famine or the Great Leap Forward. I will agree that because these regimes couch their intentions in sweeter-sounding less jingoistic language than do regimes such as Hitler (though Stalin had his elements of Russian nationalism that carried over from Czarist days, and there was also jingoism to be found in Mao) it becomes easy for people to be fooled by them.
The question though, is whether we have too many influential academics who still look at the road to hell's good intentions pavings instead of the fact that it was a road to hell? Collectively in our academic institutions, are there more Holocaust Deniers peddling their garbage on unsuspecting students and getting away with it without being made outcasts from respectable society in the process for peddling their garbage? Or are there more deniers or downplayers of the other Holocausts with tenure giving our next generation of graduate students instructions about the history of these regimes that would view a Mao more as a Peter The Great type figure? Stalin himself doesn't get as much of a whitewash, but even there you will still see more who see Stalin's "paranoia" as something that should have been appeased better by Harry Truman.
I think Holocaust Deniers are idiotic, despicable figures but I think our community has done an effective job of marginalizing them out to the fringes where they belong (much as movement conservatism did to the John Birch Society in the 1960s). We're a long ways though from seeing the Deniers of another stripe get treated in the same way which academic honesty should entail. And as a veteran of 20 years in academia, I don't see that problem getting better.
I saw the footage in the movie I tell you what it got me emotional but I wasn't crying but I can't really describe it though I felt like I was numb that I couldn't express my feelings like when I was in the shoe room in the holocast museum in DC back in 2004 when I was a senior in high school and we went there for a class trip.
shareThe question though, is whether we have too many influential academics who still look at the road to hell's good intentions pavings instead of the fact that it was a road to hell? Collectively in our academic institutions, are there more Holocaust Deniers peddling their garbage on unsuspecting students and getting away with it without being made outcasts from respectable society in the process for peddling their garbage? Or are there more deniers or downplayers of the other Holocausts with tenure giving our next generation of graduate students instructions about the history of these regimes that would view a Mao more as a Peter The Great type figure? Stalin himself doesn't get as much of a whitewash, but even there you will still see more who see Stalin's "paranoia" as something that should have been appeased better by Harry Truman.
I think Holocaust Deniers are idiotic, despicable figures but I think our community has done an effective job of marginalizing them out to the fringes where they belong (much as movement conservatism did to the John Birch Society in the 1960s). We're a long ways though from seeing the Deniers of another stripe get treated in the same way which academic honesty should entail. And as a veteran of 20 years in academia, I don't see that problem getting better.
Thank you.
shareI just finished reading Five Came Back: A Story of Hollywood and the Second World War, by Mark Harris.
Harris writes that George Stevens was with a US Army division that helped liberate Dachau, and that the film Stevens and his crew took was used at the Nuremberg trials.
It's an excellent book, by the way. It follows Stevens, William Wyler, Frank Capra, John Huston, and John Ford -- who all enlisted -- and their work in filming the war, how it affected their careers and their personal lives (Capra was permanently deafened while filming in a bomber), the initial enthusiasm and later discouragement from Hollywood studios, and the typical SNAFU's from the government and the military in getting things organized.
General Eisenhower actually gave Stevens (and perhaps the other crews as well) the following instruction: “Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses - because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened."
And Ike was right. Hard to imagine that there are people who deny that the Holocaust happened. Or they quibble about the body count.
shareSorry my mind was going fast then I was typing so thank you for that correction that I was meant to say. The shoe room still kind of haunts me though so maybe that is why I couldn't put it into words
shareIt is actual footage from the liberation of Buchenwald. The "table of horrors" was set up for the German locals who were made to look at the atrocities.
The voice-over in the movie, however, gets it a bit wrong. The lampshade was not made of human skin. A human skin lampshade could never be recovered, neither from Buchenwald, nor any Nazi kingpin household. All artifacts who were ever exhibited in Holocaust museums were either from non-anthropodermic leather or plastic. The holocaust memorial site in Buchenwald no longer exhibits the small lampshade it used to have on display, which was revealed to be a fake. The large lampshade seen on the "table of horrors" in the footage shown in Judgement at Nuremberg was never recovered, and it does not match any description of any human skin lampshade described contemporaries who claimed to have seen one with their own eyes. People who testified that they saw a human skin lampshade are Martin Bormann Jr. and a Buchenwald survivor, who claimed to have seen the tattoo of a fellow prisoner, Hansel and Gretel, on a lampshade in the house of the commander's wife, Ilse Koch.
The pieces of skin with the drawings on them are anthropodermic, but they were not used for "drawing pictures", as claimed in the voice-over, but they were pieces of tattooed skin. Some of them have holes punched into them because they were part of a "scientific" collection. It was part of a doctoral thesis, which, in fact, is also to be found on the "table of horrors". The merit of the thesis (prevalence of tattoos among criminals) was claimed by the camp physician, who was also Ilse's lover, but it was ghost-written by an inmate. The framed piece of human skin with the drawing of the naked female figure with butterfly wings is in the National Archives and used to be filed as "human skin lampshade". It might have served as panel for a lampshade, but according to the way the piece of skin (a man's chest, actually) is truncated, the erotic tattoo would have been upside down.
The shrunk heads are actual tsantsas from a museum collection and were not fabricated at the Buchenwald camp.
The "human pelvis, used as an ashtray" is the pelvis of a human male, but there's no indication that it served as an ashtray. It may have been just another part of the anatomical collection, which included a pair of lungs, a kidney, and a heart pierced by gunshot.
Well, if that isn't a "table of horrors", I don't know what is. I borrowed the expression from Ken Kipperman, a gentleman who spent many years trying to find the infamous human skin lampshade.
You may cross-examine.