Wait what!?



I love big epic films that deal with big issues. This is one of those films but it has two major sticking points that ruin it for me. Firstly, considering there were so many Germans who went on trial after World War II, why did they choose to focus on four judges? These guys had second hand influence on the atrocities of that war whereas the true murderers, the soldiers who directly harmed innocent people, should be the focus of the film. Secondly, it seems a little off that the one German character who confesses to his role in the heinous act of carrying out the Third Reich laws comes from a Hollywood actor (Burt Lancaster) playing the role of a former Nazi! That’s just bad taste and one of the many cases you’ll find Hollywood serving its interests through one eyed lenses and taking matters into their own hands. You’ve at least got to have a German confessing the acts of the character if it is film that analyses the role of the German individual during the war!

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One of the special features that went with the DVD explained why they focused on the trial of the judges rather than the trial that came earlier, which was where a different tribunal dealt with the more direct offenders. I don't remember their exact reasons but I think it's something like this:

The movie was adapted from a play, so the focus wasn't the decision of the movie producers.

The playwright thought the trial of the judges was better for examining the specific issues he wanted to address. I think part of it was that the judges were responsible for declaring what was legal and what wasn't. So when Hitler passed laws, the judges had to uphold and implement them. The play and movie look at how the judges resolved their own moral dilemmas, how they balanced their personal ambition with their consciences, and what their own ideas of justice were. I think the producers and playwright thought judges were crucial to the propagation of the Nazi agenda throughout Germany and in making it seem respectable, even patriotic, to the German people.

The movie points out that the judges had the opportunity to denounce the Nazi laws, and could have presented an obstacle to Hitler if they had taken a stand against him. It may not have been effective, but at least the judges would not have been complicit with Hitler's atrocities.

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Good to get a response from someone who knows a bit about what they're talkin about.

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Thanks very much. I wish I could remember exactly what they said on the DVD but I think I got the gist of it.

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The play that the film is based on obviously wanted to show a different side of Hitler's Germany.

Before the trial of the four judges, most of the Nazi military leaders were already put on trial. For instance, one major officer (Mrs. Bertholt's husband) was convicted for execution by the Americal Colonel, Richard Widmark. In fact, enough time had passed for the US to consider being allies with Germany again.

Since the war people have been talking about how the Nazis were cruel, how the German army killed millions and so on. But that was the military side, yet there was another side to the whole Nazi machine, and this film focused on that: to pass laws and rationalize the Nazi ideals as a way of life among the German people themselves.

It's basically a matter of finance and power to have a great army. But to have a whole nation cheer for that army, or rat about the Jews or other minorities among their neighbors, or ridicule a man on trial at court for racial pollution (I cannot remember the exact term) now that takes quite a lot of work and propaganda. How did ordinary people become supporters of such an inhuman regime? How did extraordinary people like Janning become part of it?

Hitler's short term solutions to the long-standing problems of Germany were one reason. Systematic propaganda also had a vital role, but another vital role was the fear. The fear inflicted by the new Nazi laws. The four judges therefore had a major role in the Nazi regime. Quoting from his closing speech: "...This trial has shown that under the stress of a national crisis, ordinary -even able and extraordinary men- can delude themselves into the commission of crimes and atrocities so vast and heinous as to stagger the imagination. ... How easily that can happen."

Anyway, Judge Haywood explained at the start of the movie, "Hitler is gone, Goebbels is gone, now we're judging judges" in a cynical manner, so he knows the trial will not be received well. Nevertheless he does his duty. He knows that for such a vast crime of humanity, there has to be responsibility beyond a few politicians and military leaders.


Never be complete.

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The playwright thought the trial of the judges was better for examining the specific issues he wanted to address. I think part of it was that the judges were responsible for declaring what was legal and what wasn't.


What was not legal, in your view, please?

making it seem respectable, even patriotic, to the German people


Was it not?



Yours,

Thusnelda


The Ides... are Upon us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc-yg04rVw4

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I saw something very different. First, I saw original footage from American Liberators re the extent of the Nazi Atrocities when they liberated the camps in 1945: piles of dead corpses being bulldozed into a mass grave; emaciated victims of the concentration camps; young children--less than 10 years of age--showing tatoos.

There was one important/crucial scene after the showing of that raw footage. In the prison cafeteria, One of the Judges questions whether it was really possible to kill that many people. He turns around and asks Pohl--Oswald Pohl a leading Nazi in charge of organizing the camps--Pohl, was it possible to have that many people killed. And Pohl anwers: yes, it was possible to kill 10,000 people in a half-hour, 160,000 people in an eight hour day. And then he concludes: "It's dispossing of the bodies that's a problem." That was why the killing factories with crematoria were established. Previous to establishment of death factories in 1941, the Einsatzgruppen did the killing by gunshot over mass graves; but such a killing took a toll on the perpetrators. Plus, we are told, the ground heaved for days afterward where the bodies decomposed. Further, there would be evidence of a major atrocity long after. The killing factoris/gas chambers were intended to make killing anonymous, and crematoria made destruction of the evidence thorough.

The indictment against the Judges is a fictional tale which counterpoints the real indictment of the Nazi High Command. The fictional judges are being charged as accessories to the Nazi regime of terror by not defying the Nazi rule. The movie overlooks the small detail that to defy the Nazi High Command would put oneself in jeopardy for life.

The challange of the movie is to set this fictional tale within the reality of the Holocaust; the same challange all fictional responses to the Holocaust have--whether SOPHIE'S CHOICE or THE READER. By including that raw footage--real--within the fictional tale of the indictment, Stanley Kramer resolved an important point of any aesthetic about the Holocaust, the reality of the Holocaust, the extent and depth of the atrocity.

You are asking a question that the movie is not about, though it is tangential to the movie. The Einsatzgruppen were Nazi soldiers with responsibility for killing Jews, for implementing the details of the Final Solution of the Jewish Question--the Nazi euphemism for extermination. Scholars generally acknowledge that many, many people were never brought to justice for the role they played in the atrocities; generally, I think, only 10% of the perpetrators have been regarded as indicted for the atrocities. So even by the time of the movie being made in 1961, there were perpetrators of the atrocities walking about who had never been brought to justice.

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Others on this thread have given ample information about the Abby Mann's wise intentions when writing this script.

As far as Lancaster's casting, he was a last minute replacement. Laurence Oivier had been cast in the role and could not do it for some reason. A number of casting coups and failures have ironically risen over the need for a last minute replacement.

I think the option of going to Lancaster had something to do with not only being desperate for a strong, talented actor as a last minute replacement, but also Lancaster has what the Nazi's would have called an "Aryan" look. Tall, heroically handsome and strong. Another example of this type of physical casting, to make a point, on Kramer's part actually is in "Inherit the Wind". If you look at the casting of a young 34 year old Claude Akins in the role of Rev. Brown you can see Kramer chose him in large part because of the prominent type brow and features that were vaguely reminiscent of the neanderthals, who oddly enough in some scientific circles are believed to have not become extinct as much as they inbred with the ancient homosapians. Look at Dick York as Cates, you will see it there and also in Frederick March's sometimes ape-like mannerisms he did as Brady.

I do agree with you that Kramer should have gone after any number of the fine German actors around at the time, for role of Janning. It would been more in line with the rest of the casting as the other defendants were German or in Werner Klemperer's case German Jewish. Lancaster did a very good job. But for me, it was not quite as seamless a fit seeing how well everyone else was cast.

One person who I think would have been great in the role was Kurt Jurgens. He was a wonderful actor and would have fit the bill of the larger than life Janning.

Movies though are a quirky animal when it comes to castings and sometimes directors are left with less than perfect choices and very rarely do they get their first choices. Lancaster may have been a stop-gap measure that had to occur. It is also possible that other German actors did not want to take the chance to play such a role. 1960 was not a great time for artists in Germany. For example although the German people wanted to have Marlene Dietrich perform in her former country, after one effort she refused to return as she was cruelly treated by the German Press. There was still alot of resentment for her brave efforts to support the Allies during WW2 by acting not only as a performer near the front lines, but for doing all she could to undermine Hitler and the Nazi's. These actors might have faced a similar retribution at that time. This film occured barely 15 years after WW2 ended.

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This movie is simply badly written. If the point was to examine guilt by association, or the legitimization of Nazism, etc. it fails terribly. Janning (the only person who appears to actually be "on" trial) is repeatedly said to be a judge not a prosecutor or lawmaker. Haywood never shows any sign that he considers Frau Bertholt or the housekeepers guilty yet goes ballistic on Janning. When Haywood last sees Janning he accuses him of sentencing innocent people. Yet through out the trial this is disproved repeatedly. If anything this movie comes across as an unintentional effort to condemn Nuremberg and all who supported it.

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I'm afraid you missed a very important distinction being examined throughout the movie: the difference between "law" and "justice". In fact, one of the defendants made that his explicit justification - that his job was not about justice, and that a judge would be out of line to confuse what is right with what is legal.

Haywood "goes ballistic" on Janning because the two of them were wed to the same principles, and Janning betrayed them. He's offended that Janning bailed on what was just and humane, in favor of what was deemed "legal" by the Nazis. Janning was emblematic of all the smaller cogs who ultimately allowed what was seen in the footage of the concentration camps.

This was one judge offended to his depths by what another had done to pervert their calling. Bertholt and the housekeepers weren't even in the same universe in terms of his connection to them, or his expectations of respecting a higher standard.

_______________

Nothing to see here, move along.

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At some point in time, most people in Germany knew that if you opposed Hitler, your life was in danger. I don't know what year that became obvious (1935?), but those judges or any other probably couldn't just take a "stand" as was suggested, unless they were willing to give up their lives. By the time it became clear that Hitler was really dangerous, I think it may have already been too late. He had too much support at that point and a willingness to commit violence to get his way.

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why did they choose to focus on four judges? These guys had second hand influence on the atrocities of that war whereas the true murderers, the soldiers who directly harmed innocent people, should be the focus of the film.

The fact that these judges were less directly involved with the horrors of the Holocaust than many others is an integral point to the film. The crux of the defense is precisely that they WERE too remotely related to it to justify criminal punishment.

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