Mrs. Grose says "What should I tell the Master, ma'am?"
To which Miss Giddens replies, "The truth."
Do you think Mrs. Grose told the uncle that Miss Giddens was insane?
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Fear What's Inside...
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Perhaps an even more interesting question is what would Flora tell her uncle, since i assume he would want to hear things from her perspective as well. Especially as it's likely that Mrs. Grose would be at least somewhat cautious in how she describes "the truth" and the uncle might reasonably expect Flora would be more forthcoming.
But if we are to believe that Mrs. Grose is a genuinely sincere person, then by her own words she thought Miss Giddens was wrong in how she handled the children over the last few days. First, with Flora at the lake. Then with the decision to keep Miles at the estate in order to confront the Horror (Quint). So she would not be a particularly sympathetic witness for Miss Giddens. However, i think she still liked the governess, or at least wasn't hostile to her. Therefore i don't think she would come right out and say that she believes Miss Giddens is insane but instead would strongly hint that it is a distinct possibility.
I could imagine the scene playing out something along these lines:
Uncle: What happened? Why did Miss Giddens send everyone away except herself and Miles?
Grose: I'm not sure where to begin, sir. It was all very strange.
Uncle: Well it certainly looks strange from where i'm sitting.
Grose: Yes, sir, and i'm truly sorry. But Miss Giddens...now i do like her, you understand, but her behavior has become...well, it has worried me.
Uncle: Worried for her sake or for the sake of the children?
Grose: For both, sir. She seemed a perfectly fine governess and i took to liking her straight away. You saw her, you know how she was. Very lovely and proper. But as the days passed she grew more and more...uneasy, i s'pose you could say.
Uncle: And for no reason?
Grose: I'm not sure of that. Ever since she saw that picture of Quint...
Uncle: Quint, did you say? I don't follow you.
Grose: It's hard to come right out and tell you this sir, but Miss Giddens thinks the estate is haunted. I can almost believe it myself sometimes. Especially at night when the wind is blowing. And then after seeing that picture...
Uncle: You're saying she thinks Quint is haunting the house?
Grose: Both him and her, sir, if you take my meaning. She got it into her head that they were using the children in order to, well, to physically embrace one another again.
Uncle: Good God, you can't be serious! What a thing to....but, but Mrs. Grose, if she really believed that, why didn't she send the both of them away? Why only Flora?
Grose: She and i discussed that rather heatedly, i'm afraid. I didn't think it was right, if i may say so, but she felt very strongly you see.
Uncle: No, not clearly. What exactly did she feel strongly about?
Grose: About how she thinks Miles needs to confront this nightmare, this Horror, as she calls it. I tried to talk her out of it, but she is a most determined woman.
I really didn't think i could come up with a good signature, but happily i thought of this one.
That's very well written, but I'm not so sure that Mrs Grose would have the gumption to put herself at the level to express her true feelings so strongly to a man that she has been trained to consider her superior. I feel she would say something more like
"I believe her to be mad sir. The house,the children, it was simply too much for the poor woman"
Just because something can't be explained,doesn't mean it becomes yours!
Being Human
Good point and one which i completely failed to take into consideration. But yes, i can easily imagine that being the case and can see her uttering those very words.
I think it's possible though that the uncle would draw her out by essentially giving her leave to speak candidly (or even demanding that she do so). Moreover, Mrs Grose mentioned that she knew him going back to when he was a boy. So presumably they had a unique relationship which may have precluded her feeling much daunted by either him or his position. On the other hand, her natural tendency seems to lean heavily towards caution. But i think the uncle would understand this and would realize that a bit of coaxing was necessary in order to get anything of substance out of her.
That in turn makes me think of what he said to Miss Giddens at the beginning of the film, asking if she had an imagination. I assume that his primary source of information from the estate came from Mrs Grose and therefore, knowing her for as long as he had, he would know that she lacked an imagination or at least quickly dismissed anything out of the ordinary as "stuff and nonsense."
This would allow her to remain a sane and reliable servant to the children, but would not allow her to get to the heart of what might be happening. And i believe that is what the uncle was hoping Miss Giddens would do after having gleaned something unusual was possibly taking place there (he knew for instance that Flora was extremely unsettled by the mere mention of Jessel and Miles may have been sent away after exhibiting signs of disturbing behavior).
Insanity though often soars on the wings of imagination. So he may have gotten more than he bargained for with Miss Giddens. Or, conversely, getting to the heart of the matter may have been too much for Miles.
I really didn't think i could come up with a good signature, but happily i thought of this one.
You make a very good point about Mrs Grose ,having a relationship with the Uncle. The screenplay even alludes to her possibly raising him. I can't believe I forgot that , after seeing this masterpiece so many times. If you're interested, check out Robin Hood Players/ The Innocents on YouTube and you'll find a montage of a production of The Innocents, I directed .
Just because something can't be explained,doesn't mean it becomes yours!
Being Human
Saw the montage and you guys did great. Do you know though whether the audience in general perceived it more as a ghost story or of a woman descending into madness?
I really didn't think i could come up with a good signature, but happily i thought of this one.
After each performance,we would discuss that very question. The audience like the players were divided between a Ghost story and Madness. I directed it with the thought that Miss Giddens was somehow,finding and losing herself through the house and sadly through two disturbed,innocent children who were exposed to their now dead role models. Quint and Jessel's S&M lifestyle really messed the children up and along comes a seemingly straight laced young women who had never been outside her father's religious Victorian home. The result of those two situations, had to turn out badly.
If you'll notice,in our version, Miss Gidden's hair is down by the end of the play. Our Miles,(like the 70s "Turn of the Screw"with Lynn Redgrave) was a teenager,which brings it to a whole other level.
I just saw an excellent ,"The Turn of the Screw",with two actors playing all the roles.After the show, in a Q&A, the audience was divided. I think they always will be.
Just because something can't be explained,doesn't mean it becomes yours!
Being Human
Aha, i didn't notice that about her hair. That's interesting. Symbolizing, i take it, that she is coming undone both emotionally and sexually?
One thing i did notice though, since it struck me as strange in the film version, is that near the beginning of the montage a voice cried out multiple times to Flora and the name "Flora" can be clearly heard each time. In the movie however (at around the 9 minute mark) it sounds to me like the voice is saying "Mare-uh." As i stated in another thread, my contention is that it is a combination of "Mary" (Jessel) and "Flora." As though the filmmakers couldn't decide whether it should be Flora calling to Mary or Mary calling to Flora. Or as though they simply wanted to have it as another bit of ambiguity...which seems to be their obsession throughout 😀
I really didn't think i could come up with a good signature, but happily i thought of this one.
I never caught that before, about the voice near the beginning of the film. As you state , the film is full of ambiguities. Although there are other moments that leave no doubt. The kiss Miles gives to Miss Giddens still amazes me and the fact that no one ever mentions the phallic curtain cord banging up and down to the words " Love me , love me" . The words "The Children are watching". Could not be any clearer.
Also something I just thought of. I've always loved the moment when the Uncle says"She died"(referring to Miss Jessel) the clock chimes. We exactly recreated this moment on stage. One of the audience members could be heard saying" Is that the doorbell"? Ah the theater audience of Indiana!
Just because something can't be explained,doesn't mean it becomes yours!
Being Human
That curtain cord went completely over my head (so to speak!). Will have to look for it next time. Yet what continues to fascinate me is that even in the instances you cite, even while they are clear in one sense, there still remains the seemingly ever-present ambiguity. For is Miles really the one kissing her or is it a Quint-possessed Miles? And is she really hearing those suggestive phrases or is she merely imagining them (with the cord perhaps conjuring up the "love me" in her mind)?
As to the former instance, we can take it a step further and wonder whether it is to be interpreted as though Flora is in effect the one being kissed. That is, did the filmmakers use Miss Giddens in place of Flora in that scene since they couldn't come right out and show a child kissing another child like that. Similarly, earlier we see Miles nearly choking Miss Giddens and that too may have been intended to be seen as a typical Miles and Flora type interaction which couldn't be directly shown. Thus, in a roundabout way, those scenes (to me at least) appear to be depicting the 'games' that Miss Giddens suspected the children were playing in order to keep alive Quint and Jessel's stormy relationship.*
But then there's yet another step into ambiguity as we ask ourselves if this is because the children viewed Q and J as role models and were simply mimicking them, or were The Horrors reenacting their relationship through the children?
All in all, it's rather amazing how many ways there are to interpret nearly everything in the film.
*It is perhaps telling that even after Miles did these things to her, Miss Giddens' only thought is of him and Flora doing such things together instead of worrying that Miles/Quint were interested in using herself as a puppet for Jessel, which would seem to be the logical conclusion she would have drawn.
I really didn't think i could come up with a good signature, but happily i thought of this one.
As a kid, I believed it was a pure ghost story and the children were possessed.Flora does have the face of a woman and Miles is a little gentleman. It works beautifully as a ghost story.
After seeing it several more times, I came to the conclusion that Miss Giddens,the daughter of a country parson, was inexperienced and uptight. She is taken with the Uncle("He seems to prefer them young and pretty") and her ego has been stroked. Miss Giddens is given soul authority, and was taught to help people, even if they don't want her her help. By the time she meets Miles and Flora, they are beyond their years. Watch Deborah Kerr's reaction to Miles riding horseback. It's that of a Lady watching her brave knight, riding dangerously. The children HAVE been watching and they've been seriously disturbed by what they've seen. They have been in "rooms used as dark woods" Flora's major influence was a woman who " wanted the weight of (Quint's) hand. Mile's mentor was a powerful man who had the "Devil's own eye". A presence or memory lingers at Bly House and the past,which has already corrupted the children, manifests itself unto a sexually frustrated,simple,romantic, who almost swoons at the thought of finding the answers,which have to be found in the past.The look on Flora's face when Miss Giddens points out Miss Jessel across the lake,tells the story. It's a look of "Are you insane? There's no one there! Miss Giddens scares Flora(probably) into a mad house and scares Miles to death. Mrs Grose knows her place in the order of the Victorian status quo. It's only near the end of the film that Grose lets some of her true feelings spill. "I never heard her speak like it before,..Never...until you came" Mrs Grose didn't feel intellectually strong enough to save the children from the hands of this unbalanced woman and Miss Giddens was too deluded in her dark gothic crusade, to leave them alone. All Miss Giddens wanted to do was, save the children, not destroy them!
Just because something can't be explained,doesn't mean it becomes yours!
Being Human
Lots of food for thought there and you make a strong case for how you view the film. Your take on the riding scene especially interests me as i didn't make much of that scene originally. I'll have to watch it again but my impression was that Flora is the one who seemed enthralled by Miles' riding exploits, while Miss Giddens mostly looked afraid. Also i think there was some kind of weird music or sound effect as the camera turned up toward the sky. As though suggesting something supernatural or disturbing was happening, or at least that Miss Giddens thought so and perhaps she was more afraid of that than of Miles falling.
And yes, from the angle you are interpreting things i can see how having an older Miles in your play would make things work better. For in terms of the film, the problem i've had with that aspect is with him being so young. Which begs the question of why did they choose such a young actor? I remember though that Miss Giddens kissed Miles at the end of the movie in a way that made me feel uncomfortable, for it seemed more a lover's kiss than that of a governess kissing a child. So there is something to all this. Perhaps Miss Giddens was attracted to the ideal of innocence and could only love him, could only return his earlier kiss, once he was cut off from the Horror and could be an "innocent" again.
Yet i still continue to interpret the movie as revolving primarily around possession instead of a crazed governess. For me too many things point toward it being a ghost story, with other aspects (such as the relationship between Miles and Miss Giddens) involved in a secondary way.
Examples:
* Flora calling out to her former governess (or the other way around) moments prior to meeting the new one. It could be that Miss Giddens imagined the calls, but she only just arrived and so it is unlikely she would be hearing or seeing things at that stage unless she were crazy to begin with, but that would make for a far less interesting film. Plus, she heard the voice before she saw Flora or could have even anticipated where she might be other than at the mansion.
* Flora seems to know that her brother is returning ("Miles is coming! Miles in coming!").
* Flora mentions telling Mrs Grose that she wished there were a way to sleep in several rooms at once and this startled the old servant. But why? And why would the writers make a point of bringing this out? My guess is to indicate that Mrs Grose feared the children were in danger of being possessed (that is, if they weren't already). Flora's wish therefore strengthened this fear since being connected to the otherworld is the only way one could conceivably be in several different places simultaneously.
* Speaking of Mrs Grose, it is hinted that she both saw and heard the Horrors but tried desperately to make believe they weren't there. For instance, she told the children to pretend they didn't hear strange noises and also Flora declares that Mrs Grose is too afraid to open her eyes in the dark. Then, too, Mrs Grose chides Miss Giddens about the dangers of waking children from bad dreams. That to me is another indication of wanting to look the other way instead of confronting the "truth" of what was happening there.
* Miles recites a poem that strongly suggests a worshipful devotion to Quint. Then while still reciting it he appears to deliberately walk up to and look out of the very window through which Miss Giddens saw Quint. As though to say: "I know you saw him there and it is he who i am drawn to, am devoted to, and not you."
* Flora rows a boat after earlier indicating she didn't know how to. She was either lying or else was now acting under the influence of Jessel, enabling her to do things she could not otherwise have done.
* Then Flora danced that strange dance and afterward said it felt like someone was watching her. Who though? Jessel? Miss Giddens? Those are the obvious conclusions but this film seldom reaches for the obvious. My thought is that a Jessel-possessed Flora was dancing for Quint and it was his presence that Flora felt. A further thought is that when Flora and Miles are possessed they (their true selves) go into a sort of slumber and are aware of little that is happening. They are essentially in a dream-state. Thus when suddenly awakened from this dream it is a shock to them. In fact, I suspect that is precisely what Mrs Grose was alluding to when she said it is cruel to awaken a child from a bad dream since it can leave the child feeling shocked and deprived.
Deprived is an interesting word to use there. For why would being awakened from a bad dream leave one feeling deprived? It makes much more sense in terms of becoming un-possessed, of having something suddenly snatched away from you. This apparently proved too much for Miles, perhaps because he was more intensely attached to Quint (as evidenced by the recital) than Flora was to Jessel. Thus a greater shock. With Flora, the initial shock may have been less but after that i think she experienced something akin to withdraw symptoms due to feeling deprived of the presence of Jessel.
* Now that i think of it, the dancing was likely meant to mirror the horse riding scene. They both, for example, depicted the children performing as though for a private audience. If this is so, then it was probably a Quint-possessed Miles who was riding in order to please Jessel. It certainly looked like he was trying to impress someone (but not Miss Giddens, for he said something about how he wasn't aware that she was even there). To me it was Flora who seemed both pleased and impressed by Miles. Furthermore, it is likely that this type of derring-do is what attracted Jessel to Quint, just as her dancing may be what first caught Quint's eye, and thus both scenes could show the children being directed by the Horrors in order to recapture stirring moments from their corporal relationship.
* A final possible indication actually comes from outside the film. The Innocents was released a year or so after Village of the Damned. I haven't seen that movie (other than catching the end of it on TCM a while back) but i gather that the plot involves a group of children essentially possessed by aliens in some sense. The actor playing the lead child there is the same one who plays Miles. My guess is that this wasn't a coincidence nor is it the only connection between the films. For it seems reasonable that VOTD inspired a similar movie to be made, except with a ghostly theme instead of an alien one.
Perhaps this also explains why they went with such a young actor for Miles, since other than maybe being a little too young they knew he would otherwise be perfect for the part given the similarities between the films and the roles he would be playing.