As far as I see it this movie offers three explanations for what is happening with equal evidence given to support each. Here is what I thought (*Spoilers*)... 1. The governess is not stable and her mental condition slowly disintegrates as she stays longer leading her to create more and more paranoid dillusions. 2. It is all a plot by the maid and the children to get rid of the governess. For example the ghost only ever appears on the lake after one of the kids has been in the boat on the lake. There is always someone missing who could be operating a dummy. 3. There is a supernatural explanation/the place is haunted.
The film is a great translation of Henry James "The Turn of the Screw". The title alone gives it away. She was mentally unbalanced as in "loose screws" or slightly "off".
I don't think there's any evidence in either the movie or the original novel to support this particular interpretation. It's an interesting idea, but it's the sort of theory where you really have to reach and make guesses about what you DON'T see in order to make it work.
Maybe my point of view is set because I read the novella first. To be sure, the director could be posing a different possibility than Henry James did. But I can't think of any major critics who have seriously suggested that it's a plot by the housekeeper and children. The rapid appearances/disappearances of Quint and Jessel would be much too difficult to "rig," I think.
No, I think that the other two interpretations are the most likely ones.
The only appearance that would be really difficult is when Jessel appears in the study. When she is out on the lake she always appears and disappears when someone is out there. The second time she appears she doesn't disappear at all (as no one is out there to take down the dummy). When Quint appears there is always someone missing and it is basically in the same place. Also both Quint and Jessel are very wooden. The gleam in particular that Quint has in his eye would indicate that it is made of glass, the way he swoops in would indicate rigging. And you are right about "what you DON'T see" making my theory work. You never see why Miles is expelled from school and you never see the story of Jessel and Quint or in fact are given any evidence that that is what happened. My theory works on the presumtion that. A. Mrs Grose lied/fabricated the whole story of Quint and Jessel in order to spook Miss Giddens. Which she would if she was a planning to get rid of her. B. Now that Miss Giddens is spooked by Quint and Jessel they stage appearances in order to frighten her (well actually they stage the appearances and then fabricate the story to spook her). C. The children are "problem children" and not possessed by ghosts at all.
The title of the book isn't a reference to someone being nuts....though the argument that she is unstable is valid. The title of the novella is more of a metaphor, we assume the role of one of the guests listening to the tale, and with each revelation the point is driven into the person. It's stated before the manuscript is received a ghost story involving one child would illicit one turn of the screw, what about two children? the response is two turns. The film did a very good job of translating James's novella to screen. I thoroughly enjoy ambiguous pieces of work. It engages you, instead of presenting something that is neatly packaged.
No, I never thought the governess was insane at all, and not in the film. Films are not always based exactly on the novel. I have always believed that their home was haunted by spirits, and people get confused with The Others ending.
But wait a minute - I thought a giant, claw-footed, invisible monster was roaming the house trying to kill the children and it turns out it was created from Miss Giddens' imagination by a huge, underground machine made by the Krel. That's what I thought after I saw "Forbidden Planet" anyhow... or maybe I'm a bit confused lol!
"Oh look - a lovely spider! And it's eating a butterfly!" '' ,,
What about a bit of both. She is unstable which makes her ripe pickings for possession. Ms. Jessup is able to then possess her in the school room after Ms. Giddens touches the tear, which explains her sudden change of plan. Then her objective is to get rid of the little girls who is competition for her sought after lover who showed aggression and ambivalence towards her in real life...as described by ms. Grose. Miles is of courses possessed by the man and Ms. Giddens being possessed is pursuing him...getting alone in the house. Remember the death of the man may not have been an acciident.
The ambiguous nature of this story is part of what makes this film so compelling to me. So much is open to interpretation and the viewer's own imagination, fears, assumptions, etc. The film is so rich in detail, nuances, and symbolism- if you tune in to the more subtle aspects you'll go deeper into the ambiguity. Which to me makes repeating viewings so fun. I tend to believe it's a mix of an unstable governess, ghosts, and vulnerable children (maybe traumatized by losing parents, an unloving uncle, and being subjected to the living versions of psycho Quint and sick Miss Jessel). But instead of getting locked into one fixed interpretation, I like to leave it open and consider the possibilities (since I get new understandings each time I watch it). That's how I enjoy the movie, anyway- but I realize that approach is not satisfying to everyone.
On the topic of ambiguity- one of the most telling lines in "The Innocents" involves the concept of "truth" and "imagination." At the beginning the Uncle asks Miss Giddons if she has an imagination, and she tells him yes. Then the uncle says, "Truth is seldom understood by any but imaginative persons...." Pretty much sets the tone right there. What is her "imagination" and what is "truth" (and are they truly separate, what is reality, sanity, etc.- you can go pretty deep here)- but that's the question for the entire movie. The question is made explicit again near the end when she sends Mrs. Grose and Flora away, and tells Mrs. Grose to tell the Uncle "The truth." (to which Mrs. Grose has a typically open to interpretation response, from my view). Anyway an amazing movie and various ways to interpret and enjoy it.
Turn of the Screw is actually an old saying that means that the story changes because of something that happens. I have not seen the movie, but the book talks about it in the prologue.
A better modern day translation of "turn of the screw" is "putting the screws" to someone. The children "tighten the screw" of the Governesses mental state...as well, she has some "issues" of her own that turn the screw even farther.
Why must the questions of Miss Giddens sanity and the reality of the ghosts be mutually exclusive? It seems just as likely, and perhaps even more probable, that both are the case rather than it having to be the case of either one or the other. Early in the film Miss Giddens, while clearly not psychotic, does appear to be carrying some baggage. She needs for those children to need her - for her to be as important to them as they are to her - and almost seems bothered (maybe even jealous?) when hearing Mrs. Grose describe the attachments that Flora had to Miss Jessel and Miles to Peter Quint, respectively. Miss Giddens was haunted - either by her own insecurities and the daunting task of being as beloved by the children as Miss J and Quint - or by their actual ghosts - which surely couldn't have been healthy for a stable psyche much less a fragile one.
I just watched the movie (and have not read the story) and I thought it was unusual how Miss Giddens so immediately loved the children, so deeply. I think that normal behaviour would be that upon meeting the children, to like them, and after some time getting to know them, then to have deeper feelings of love. That's what made me think she was unstable. She was super-attached, devoted, connected, and so on, to the children from the first minute. I thought it made her look a little creepy/odd.
Perhaps her being a little unstable was why she was more open to the ghosts that were really there? If she'd been all sane, she wouldn't have been sensetive to them? Because I really think the ghosts were there, but that doesn't mean she was all there in the first place.
********** - Who's the lady with the log? - We call her the Log Lady.
Yes, she was a very lonely and unstable person, desperate for both companionship and especially a family of her own. That caused her to be especially friendly to the children. She wanted to love them, and even to think of them as her own. That's what made her so dismissive of the letter from Miles' school which said how he was corrupting the children. ("It must be a mistake.")
Miss Giddens (Miss Giddy?)is as nutty as a fruit cake. The brief sketches of her family life reveal one of a stodgy family (everyone had to be quiet while father was composing his sermons...) cramped into a small house which would have offered very little privacy. From this background this repressed and prudish young woman suddenly comes into a situation in which she is told she has 'supreme authority', it's too much for her...Miss Giddy is some kind of sexually repressed religious psycho who sees the devil in every innocent act. At the highest points of her hysteria she uses biblical language such as "cast those devils out" and most frighteningly of all, (this will haunt me forever) she tells young Miles (paraphrase) "I was brought up by my father to help people, even if they didn't want it, even if it hurt them". The woman is clearly a religious fruit.She completely misunderstands the pain that the two children have endured, they have obviously lost both their parents, their uncle doesn't care about them at all, and a part of their lives were dominated by those other 2 nut jobs Jessel and Quint. Clearly, the goerness, a young repressed woman on the edge of sexual awakening is the ghost of the house. Ultimately, it is she who is haunting the children to death. I've read James' novella, the woman is a creepy psycho.
"I was brought up by my father to help people, even if they didn't want it, even if it hurt them". The woman is clearly a religious fruit.She completely misunderstands the pain that the two children have endured, they have obviously lost both their parents, their uncle doesn't care about them at all, and a part of their lives were dominated by those other 2 nut jobs Jessel and Quint.
I took it to mean that she had witnessed and maybe even helped her preacher father with an exorcism or two. "Help them even if it hurt them."
I too think there are more than one dynamic happening in this film and the only ones really paying for all the crazy, disinterested, head in the sand, perverted adults, are the children. The Innocents. No one Miles' mind decides to just give up and die.
It's entirely possible that I am missing the point of your message. reply share
Remember it was a very cold and dark night, it was icy underfoot, and he had apparently slipped on the step. Innocent Miles found the body, and was inconsolable as he had "worshipped" Quint. Quint had been out drinking heavily, but Mrs Grose also hinted that he had a number of enemies because of bad things he had done.
So, did he fall
or was he pushed?
(or wis 'e jist plain pished?)
"Oh look - a lovely spider! And it's eating a butterfly!" '' ,,
The ambiguity of this story in its original and filmed versions is what both fascinates and frustrates readers/viewers. I read the story years ago, before ever seeing The Innocents, and came to the conclusion that the governess was demented and had imagined the whole ghost idea.
The film is different in that it forces us to take sides with or against Deborah Kerr . The scene where Miss Giddens is trying to force Flora to admit she sees the ghost of Miss Jessel, strikes me as showing through Deborah Kerr's facial expressions and tone ,that quiite possibly, the governess is crazy, emphasized by Mrs. Grose's unnerved and disapproving reaction.
And yet...that ambiguity just won't go away! It's entirely possible to read the scene as the governess being in total control of her mental faculties, and becoming infuriated with a stubborn child refusing to admit a secret. After all, even Mrs. Grose says earlier that "...there was too much whispering going on in this house", and it seems clear she disapproved of the influence of Quint and Miss Jessel on the children, whatever it may have been.
Quite a few people have suggested the idea that the two possibilities needn't be mutually exclusive: the ghosts could be real, AND the governess insane.
One more thought: Consider one of the first lines in the film. If I remember right, practically the first thing the uncle says to Miss Giddens during the job interview is to ask if she has an imagination. Now what does that suggest, unless it means the uncle has heard something about strange and unexplained things going on at the isolated estate? Add to that his insistence on not being bothered with anything; that Miss Giddens is to have complete charge. Is the possibility of the supernatural part of what he doesn't want to be bothered with?
And when he crossed the bridge, the phantoms came to meet him
Its possible that Mrs Grose killed Quint. she doesnt exactly hide what she thought of him. She might have made him drunk and asked him to go outside to get something for her, knowing it was icy outside. Or she could have been the one that found him and she might have thrown the body in the lake to hide it. Then Miles was out on the lake with Miss Jessel and saw his hand. Then Miss Jessel went back to the lake later and saw it was Quint and killed herself. Mrs Grose found her body but didnt say anything about Quint.
I think that Miss Giddens was your typical Victorian sexual 'hysteric'.
It's quite telling how taken she is with the Uncle at the beginning of the movie if you watch very carefully. She sees the first 'ghost' shortly after receiving a letter from him and then I think that she gets more and more hysterical on learning about Quint and Miss Jessel - it's a kind of manifestation of her sexual repressive state combined with a wild fantastical imagination.
I also think that Miles' statement about her being 'a dirty-minded hag' at the end of the film is very poignant.
Well, that's how I interpreted it. I may be wrong, because it is a very ambiguous movie...
I agree.I believe when you place a sexually frustrated,delusional governess(who wants to help people even if it sometimes hurts them) in charge of two small children who were exposed to sadomasochistic behavior,things are bound to go wrong.
Another thought came to me. Maybe Miles caused his death. If Miles was his victim, maybe Miles in a moment of insanity or clarity pushed him. Miles is the one that found him.
It's entirely possible that I am missing the point of your message.
James wrote this as a "ghost" story, and it is so convincing and detailed in it's portray of "hysterical" personalities, that we tend to interpret it today as a psychological study. But his intent was to scare. He's just too good a writer and observer that we want to make more (or less) of what happens here than actually does.
I don't think that anyone's mentioned this so far, but my personal favorite interpretation is that the ghosts are real, but that they don't interact with the children.
In this case, only Miss Gibbons can see them, and their presence causes her to go mad and make increasingly wild assumptions about the children. Whilst the kids are a bit odd, they really don't act that disturbed considering that they are orphans, so perhaps they are innocent after all.
Of course, the question then is whether the ghosts are deliberately targeting her to get at the children, or if they are simply hanging around the scenes of their untimely deaths.
I think you're really getting at something here with the innocence of the children, but I actually understood how they were harmed quite differently. My take on this is that the children were more or less fine (and were still innocents) until they were harmed by Ms. Giddens and her delusions. Her certainty that the children must have been harmed by what she believes they witnessed (and, you know, it's never made clear to us that they witnessed much of anything) ultimately does a lot more psychological harm to them than whatever it is that actually went on in that household before she arrived. In part, the movie is about flaws in Ms. Giddens understanding of the innocence of children. She's dangerous to the children because she sees their innonence as more fragile, more open to corruption, than it actually is.
While some troubling things happened in the house, it wasn't obvious to me that we had much evidence that they'd left a significant impression on the children's psyches. It seemed to me that the children were too innocent to really be corrupted by what was going on around them. They were simply too young and too ignorant of the adult world (including sex) to be greatly affected by what was going on with Quint and Ms. Jessell.
Nevertheless, Ms. Giddens is certain that what happened was so awful that it absolutely must have profoundly harmed the children. And this colors all of her interactions with the children in the latter half of the movie: she reads all of their (frankly, not that suspicious) behavior as subtly hinting at their corruption/possession. But it seems to me that she's wrong about this. They actually are innocents, and ultimately the source of their issues is her fervent belief that they couldn't possibly be innocent after what's happened around them. It's her attempts to root out nonexistent corruption/possession that is really harming her charges.
Moreover, I think Ms. Giddens overestimates the impact of witnessing Quint and Ms. Jessell's sexual relationship on the children, because the knowledge of that relationship seems to have such a significant impact on her. The depth of her moral revulsion (and, it seems to me, sexual attaction) to what she knows about Quint and Jessell's sexual proclivities makes it hard for her to see how this couldn't have profoundly impacted the children. But that says more about her own issues with sex than it does about how the children were affected by anything happening around them.
No, I don't think that there's a possibility that the children are completely innocent. Quite a lot of their behavior was suspicious. Remember how Flora already knew that Miles was about to come back from school when Ms. Giddens arrives at their house? Another telling scene is when she stares at Ms. Giddens while she's asleep the first day and smiles in that creepy manner upon seeing her moan. Also, Miles is shown to have some very violent tendencies, it is alluded to the fact that it was him who broke that pigeons neck and had been exhibiting highly violent behavior at school due to which he was expelled.
I can't say for certain whether their behavior was influenced by supernatural entities or just the pressure of being orphans under the care of an abusive person such as Quint and experiencing the affects of his affair with Jezzel, that bit is completely open to interpretation, however the loss of innocence of the children seems to be a solid fact in my eyes.
"James wrote this as a "ghost" story, and it is so convincing and detailed in it's portray of "hysterical" personalities, that we tend to interpret it today as a psychological study. But his intent was to scare. He's just too good a writer and observer that we want to make more (or less) of what happens here than actually does."
Maybe so, but you're confusing the novella with the film. What James "meant" or "intended" (if he actually did) doesn't necessarily mean that's the "right" interpretation, and has even less to do with interpreting the film. You're falling prey to the concept of authorial intent, and mixing your media.
Deadser: Books and films are different medias, yes, but the film is still based thoroghly on the book and work by James. So you can't really part them all that much after all. No matter films, the Lord of the Rings is still the work of J.R.R. Tolkein.
********** - Who's the lady with the log? - We call her the Log Lady.
I'm not sure I'd say that the evidence is equally good for all three interpretations; but, even if we accept that it is, I have a hard time seeing how interpretation 1 (viz. that Ms. Giddens is experiencing delusions) isn't preferable to the others. Basically, it's all just Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation is the best. If all three interpretations are equally consistent with the evidence, then we should go for the simplest one. And it seems clear to me that the simplest one is the one that doesn't require us to imagine either an elaborate conspiracy or supernatural forces at work. So the simplest account of what's going on is that we're seeing Ms. Giddens cracking up.
Given that nothing in the film calls out for the explanation that someone is plotting against Ms. Giddens or that there is anything supernatural at work, why would we go for explanations that have such prima facie implausibility? So let's just keep it simple.
I suppose you could object that interpretation 1 is boring, and that the story would be more interesting if we take it to be ambiguous or if we think it really does involve supernatural forces or an elaborate plot to drive her insane. I don't agree. Everything really interesting about the movie seems so closely tied to Ms. Giddens and her point of view that I don't think we lose anything by thinking of the movie as primarily an examination of her mind. The things I found interesting were the ways in which Ms. Giddens interpreted the behavior of the children, the reasons she interpreted and understood their behavior in the way she did, the effects that Ms. Giddens's thinking started to have on the people around her, the (relatively subtle) hints we had that some of the things were most likely only happening in her mind, the gradual evidence that emerged that no one around her was seeing what she saw and thinking as she thought, and the nature and intensity of her relationship with Miles. All of these things are ultimately about Ms. Giddens's and the operation of her mind, and so I don't think they become any less interesting if we think of the movie as the story of a woman slowly losing her grip on reality.
Indeed, the movie is so narrowly focused on Ms. Giddens's psychology that it would be problematic for it to really be telling a story about anything other than how she thinks and acts. Why don't we learn more about Quint and Jessel if the story is really about ghosts? Learning more information, and learning more directly, about their lives would seem necessary for an interesting and affecting story about their ghosts. If we don't know much about the ghosts, I don't think much is added to Ms. Giddens's story by knowing that actual ghosts were behind at least some of her psychological problems. And why don't we learn more about the perpetrators if the story is about some elaborate plot to drive away Ms. Giddens? If we don't learn such things, the elaborate conspiracy against Ms. Giddens doesn't really add much of anything to our understanding of her and her story; it just seems like a clever but empty plot twist.
The simplest explenation, imo, is ghost. Heck, I know ghosts don't exist in reality, but this is a horror film. And ghosts exists in horror films. Clear and simple. And we do get to know alot about Quint and Jessel. Hints and phrases about them are left us all the time. Use your imagniation to fill in whatever holes are there. I'm not going to debate that ms. Giddens might be a little unstable, but making all of the story a part of her imagination is... well, just a poor story. The story is much more layered than that.
********** - Who's the lady with the log? - We call her the Log Lady.
I think the fact that Capote worked on the screenplay,makes it impossible not to view,"The Innocents" as a psychological thriller about a sexually frustrated governess who takes charge of two very disturbed little children who saw their,now dead, role models indulging in S&M activities.The Governess herself becomes obsessed with this idea and well....things go really really bad.
Of course the beauty of the film is that it could be in fact that all three views are correct, or indeed that there is another equally plausible view. I need to watch this film again (and again and again) to see what else strikes me.
Excellent analysis btw. I am not sure either about the definitive explanation, I think you may be right when you say it could be all 3 views that are correct You are right she was losing the plot towards the end, but the question is why?
The film is undoubtedly well-made but intellectually it's pretentious nonsense (witness the shameless middlebrow sub-Freudian guff spouted above), and the so-called ambiguity is about as subtle as a cricket bat to the back of the head. No doubt this influenced the likeminded and equally preposterous, The Haunting (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057129/.
Perhaps, Jason, you'd like to educate all of us imbeciles as to what movies aren't pretentious, shameless middle-brow sub-Freudian guff? Enlighten us, such that we may know better than to appreciate something this trashy (or "The Haunting") in the future. Please give us some examples.
Silly me, I thought this was a horror film, a genre that isn't exactly noted for its subtleties. The very fact that this thing is so wonderfully done (as is "The Haunting") and so shamelessly ambiguous, I think, puts it WORLDS ahead of most other horror films...of that time, and certainly light years ahead of the ones coming out now.
It isn't Shakespeare, nor is it trying to be, any more than a great western or war movie at the time was trying to be. But it's so wonderfully made that it easily transcends its genre and winds up being one of the best movies of all time. (Along with a lot of others, of course.)
Personally, I think the Bard would have loved it! He wasn't averse to shocking his audiences, y'know.
In fact, now that I think about it, a lot of Shakespeare's plays could be described (heretical as it might seem) as "pretentious, shameless middle-brow sub-Freudian guff." Certainly Hamlet, Macbeth, Titus Andronicus and King Lear could be described in exactly those terms. (And, along the same lines, most of his comedies could be described as fluff, comparable to Nora Ephron's Tom Hanks-Meg Ryan films, just made to entertain the mass markets. Which, of course, they were.)
As I said, this is an excellent, intelligent film which transcends its genre. If you're such a die-hard elitist that you can't even accept that, then just what benefit do you think you're bestowing upon people by attempting to discourage them from it?
The world needs MORE horror fans that use this, and the original "Haunting," as the standards to judge others by, not less.
Losing your virginity, burying your pet and killing your sister...can take a lot out of a girl!
Actually, most of the best horror movies ARE subtle. The jump scare is so obvious, but the whole 'is it her, or is there really something going on' does the trick so much better.