MovieChat Forums > The Innocents (1961) Discussion > Ideas that were purposely buried within ...

Ideas that were purposely buried within The Innocents (spoilers)


This film was designed as an intricate puzzle. Some pieces just don't fit, however.

If Mary Jessel did really drown herself in the lake as only Mrs. Grose reveals (important point here that I'll mention later) then why is she buried in the churchyard with others? Did she really die from suicide? Then how can her gravestone possibly be in the church? Maybe she didn't kill herself, which would facilitate her being buried there. Suppose that Mrs. Grose could be lying - she said she can't read, and she says "It doesn't do to speak ill of the dead." She seems a woman scared out of her wits who just sweeps what happens under the carpet. She doesn't face anything, but just labels it as "stuff and nonsense!" Perhaps she has with her own eyes seen the ghosts of Miss Jessel and Quint herself, even before Miss Giddens arrives?

Then who killed Miss Jessel so she could be buried at the church? Suicide? Doesn't that go against the strict codes of burial in the Victorian era?

I do believe Miss Jessel could have killed Quint. He seems like the type of scoundrel who would go to town, get drunk, and then sow his wild oats anywhere he pleased. Perhaps she found out about it - and took him out on a night when few witnesses would even be outside - and - late at night - after all were asleep. Then in her grief over the murder and her loss of her lover, she kills herself. It isn't very far from the witnessed sordid sexual dalliances the two shared on a regular basis, and everybody in the house knew about, as well.

This film is a tale of repressed Victorian sexuality. The "turning screw" of the title alone suggests the act of sex becoming mechanical. Unemotional. Void of pleasure. And from what I've gleaned about Henry James' life, he was a closeted gay man who was an "aberration" trapped in Victorian era mores and societal values. He simply could not be happy in his life - society condemned who he actually was. So he wrote a story that condemns sexuality as evil, and found a way to make it even more reprehensible to his audience - by involving young, innocent children which are now, as a result, either psychologically damaged for life, or don't even make it to the end of the narrative. The children are no longer virginal, "innocent" - they are ruined for life, or lose their life.

It's exactly what Stanley Kubrick started to add into his films - lots of subliminally written (and filmed) clues, that the viewer has to work out on their own. They ARE there - but only if you are willing to search for them.

Lastly, Quint (meaning five) holds up his five fingers towards Miles, at the climax. It looks like an incantation of sorts, and in essence he is stealing Miles' existence away from him. "Quint! Where, you devil?!!" He is metaphysically "branding" Miles with his hand AND his name (Quint), while simultaneously stealing his soul.

this postage has been deleted by the messer

reply

There are so many levels to this film. It's quite staggering, really.

this postage has been deleted by the messer

reply

Yes, I have to agree with quite a few points you made there...

If you wish to see my stance on the whole issue, read my review... It touches (less obliquely) on some of the same points you brought up! :)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055018/reviews-105

I'd be interested & happy to hear what you make of my critique! So please, let me know! :))

-Mr_Frost



Death to Videodrome! Long live the New Flesh!

reply

It could be that Mrs. Grose deliberately misreported the suicide as an accidental drowning so that Miss Jessel could get a Christian burial. Mrs. Grose seems guileless and sober, but who knows? She might tell anything from a little white lie to a big black one.

~~~~~~~
Think cynical thoughts.

reply

I don't think Mrs. Grose is innocent by any means. And she'll say anything to protect herself.

reply

I love the ambiguous nature of this film. You can interpret it so many different ways and each interpretation I've heard is equally as disturbing as the next. This movie is one of my favorites of all time and I'm grateful to this message board to help me think about it in different ways.

Death lives in the Vault of Horror!

reply

The churchyard burial depended on the specific parish, and which side of the church. In parishes in England which allowed churchyard burials of questionable individuals, the north side of church was generally for suicides and murderers, the east for ecclesiastics, the south for upper classes, and the west for lower classes. The unbaptized pretty much went with suicides and murderers--this included miscarriages and stillbirths. In this scene in the movie, they seem to be going in the church door, though--doubtful the front door would face the north (if she walked straight from the door to the grave as it looked like). Perhaps she either walked around the church to reach the grave, or the church had a side door.

That being said, great point about the different interpretations. The book and movie seem to make it pretty clear that Mrs. Grose really doesn't see Miss Jessel when she is pointed out--she isn't lying and may well not have a reason for doing so. The question then becomes, is Flora lying in claiming not to see her, or is Miss Giddens really crazy? Mrs. Grose seems to lean towards thinking Flora screams merely at the bad memory she has been forced to face--not an apparition--though earlier she has told Miss Giddens she believes her. Did she really believe her, or was she so afraid of Miss Giddens's apparent madness at that point she would say anything to appease her, but started to back off when Flora was badly affected?

reply

The phrase "the turn of the screw" actually comes from the prologue of the novella. In the prologue, guests are gathered at an English country house, telling ghost stories. One guest relates a ghost story involving a child, and another guest, a man named Douglas, says something like "let's give the screw another turn for I also have a ghost story with children." Douglas then hands over an old manuscript given to him by his governess as a child, who was previously the same governess at Bly.

reply