MovieChat Forums > The Innocents (1961) Discussion > On Second viewing not a ghost story at a...

On Second viewing not a ghost story at all...

posted 12 years ago by nutritionist
33 replies | jump to latest

On second viewing it seems clear that the children's behavior, knowing that they were orphaned, and were sexualized at a young age, and had a governess also die on them, and the gardener die, and were precocious as a result, it is clear that their behavior is understandable. It is clear that Flora expected Miles to get kicked out of school and reunite with her. It is clear that an experienced, stable, insightful, capable governess would have understood them.

Very early on Miss Giddens is hypersensitive to sounds, gets unhinged at the sound of birds, flies and wind and even laughter, when Miles rode the Horse at the beginning and she gets scared and hears birds shriek is the scene where her madness escalates, she cannot sleep well from the beginning, she is constantly frightened, she only sees the face of the man peering in the window after she sees a picture of him in the music box.

It also becomes clear with every scene that Miss Giddens is mentally unstable, as well as repressed, and she becomes increasingly unbalanced as she enters this new environment. Every scene shows how inappropriate her reactions to her surroundings, events, and the children are. Yet, All of the movie is from her point of view, so you are drawn to see it from her perspective, BUT if you look closely, you can see that the children's behavior is understandable but her reactions and thoughts and behavior is unhinged. The HOUSEKEEPER is a key figure because she keeps giving her information about Qint and the previous governess that fuels her fears and imagination. Her psychological makeup combined with the fact that the children are NOT innocent in the least drive her further and further over the edge of insanity. She needs them to be innocent as she has a compulsion to be herself and have all children be, and when they are not it feeds her madness

It is Miss Giddens who is the Child innocent- her psyche has become stuck in that mode due to her childhood where her father, a preacher demanded silence, as she told Flora. Indeed when Miles asks about the home she came from, she does not refer to her home she just left as an adult, but rather her childhood home. if you view the movie a second time you seeing Miss Giddens as the mad child innocent and the children as precocious victims of their horrid childhood.

If she had only gone to the uncle as she initially planned to tell him everything, then she would have been fired and all would have been well. But then she said they were possessed and "couldn't be let out of her sight" and only told the housekeeper, who, because of her position and station couldn't argue with Miss Giddens. The fact that she did not go to the vicor or the Uncle shows she was mad.

I do not believe there are any ghosts at all.

[–] eweland 12 years ago

I do believe there were ghosts. And I believe Henry James did, too. It was Clayton who reversed the order of the Quint-ing; in the novel Miss Giddens sees the miniature portrait of Quint AFTER she sees his ghostly face leering at her through the window. And she definitely saw a man, not Miles, looking down at her from the doves nest, on the roof. Long before she even knew what Quint should look like, she saw an intimidating adult figure.

If you go from the source material it seems clear that James thought there were ghosts. If you go from the film, Clayton plays with his audience and obscures that fact.

Mad governesses running around just aren't that much fun.
But ghosts who will even brave the rain, are!

I've heard the mad Kerr theory. There's too many examples of the supernatural to make me buy it. Flora looks like she's been forced into an exorcism after The Rain Jessel sighting. And that has nothing to do with how she "interprets" how Miss Giddens behaves.

The two ghosts can be together only when the children are together. Show me any other siblings who are constantly playing together - most siblings can't get far enough away from each other! Yet Flora knew for a fact that Miles was coming home to Bly, because someone "outside" of the physical world told her so.

[–] felixthekzin 12 years ago

I think the film is deliberately ambiguous about this, but it does give us a couple of interesting things to think about:

-In the movie, we see multiple vivid and striking closeups of Quint's face, and NEVER Miss Jessel's, whose spectre is only seen in shadow or obscured by distance. Miss Giddens saw a picture of Quint but never one of Miss Jessel.

-Neither of the children EVER admits to seeing the ghosts, even after being badgered to tears by Miss Giddens. Flora insists she never saw anything (the maid also maintains she saw nothing more than a child being cruelly forced to relive a traumatic memory) and Miles cries "You're insane! You really ARE insane!" and repeatedly asks "Where is he?"

There are a number of things that could support either conclusion depending upon how willing one is to "believe" in ghosts, and it works as a disturbing horror tale in either context. Very artfully adapted and very well put together as a film. After all, isn't the very essence of any ghost story in that uncertain question: "Did I really see that?"

[–] kaysild 11 years ago

She does see her closer in the school room

[–] nutritionist 12 years ago

There are hardly any instances of ghosts in the movie. She saw a closeup of Quint only after seeing a picture of him, and she saw the previous governess only across the lake from far. If there are ghosts- why did only Miss Giddens see them? Why wouldn't the housekeeper see them? If Flora saw a ghost across the lake, why wouldn't she say so? Why wouldn't the children be seeing the ghosts and be scared of seeing the ghosts if they did see them? If the kids saw ghosts of people they knew were dead standing afar, they would say so, especially flora. And if he Ghosts were trying to keep themselves a secret from everyone except the kids- why would they show themselves to only Ms. Giddens?

Miss Giddens was told by the Uncle not to talk about the previous governess to Flora, because she had been very attached to her. When she screamed at her at the lake about seeing the ghost across the lake it drove the poor kid over the edge. It was abusive. Then she went on from ghosts to say that the children were "possessed" and that only she could save Miles if she "were alone with him". Why was that? This idea happened very suddenly- she could have taken both kids away to safety, she could have brought people in to help, she could have done many things other than be alone in the house with Miles and alone with supposed ghosts who she said were there. She made the absurd statement to the housekeeper that her father had told her that it was "important to help people even if it hurt them". This was an ominous statement. Why did she feel she was uniquely qualified to help a "possessed" Miles? Why was it OK to let Flora go, but not Miles? If you look carefully at the end, Miles said clearly that he knew miss giddens scared his sister terribly and he didnt want her to do that to him, he then ran from her and fell and banged his head on the ground- he must have been dazed and injured when she harangued him about seeing quint- who we do not see. Watch the movie again- clearly she is insane.

[–] knightsintodreams 11 years ago

i have to interject that two siblings can always be together. three in my case. it's not abnormal, it's a result of good parenting.

Reedus/Fassbender/Hiddleston

[–] boxerrebellion 10 years ago

Thanks. My two have often been the same. At the moment, my older teen is going through a phase where his sister (a younger teen) invariably annoys him, but for most of her 13 years they have been almost inseparable.

[–] loploppresents 10 years ago

The book is ambiguous, too; that's what makes it so great. When I read the book (long before seeing the movie), I thought immediately that the governess was delusional. Different people interpret it differently.

[–] gingersnapper 12 years ago

I rented this movie fr Netflix last week thinking it would be a frightening "ghost story". So I watched it for the 1st time but all I could "see" was that Miss Giddens was nutters. I didn't read the book so I did not know about "reordering" the seeing of Quint's picture and then seeing him outside the window...So I came here to read more about the movie/story and I decided then to watch it a 2nd time with a mind to completely believe in the ghosts and the hauntings. But still every scene just seemed like poor Debra had lost her mind. I didn't think the children were "odd" or creepy at all. Their behaviour seemed reasonable under the circumstances, and I felt so sorry for Miles.
So although it may be ambiguous to some. I can't buy into the "children were posessed" and the "place was haunted" theories. I think it was all in her mind, at least from what the movie showed the audience.

[–] DevilYouKnow 11 years ago

Everything Gingersnapper just said. ; )

Got it on Netflix thinking it was a ghost story but it was apparent to me that everything happening was all in her head.

It wasn't ambiguous to me at all. She was slightly paranoid and twitchy in the beginning, then it got worse and worse. No one else was seeing the ghosts.

The kids were behaving the way they were because hey, people around them had died (people they cared for), the Uncle didn't want them, and they were pretty much on their own. They wanted someone to take care of them. They didn't have a normal upbringing. They weren't possessed, just trying to lead a normal life when everything crazy happened around them.

http://werewolvesbeatingadeadhorse.blogspot.com/

[–] kaysild 11 years ago

She sees the dead man BEFORE she finds the picture!! She sees him on the tower! Then finds the picture and them after sees him AGAIN in the window. This is why I believe it's meant to be a ghost story bc how else would she know what he looks like. Also she has never seen miss Jessel or a picture yet somehow knows how she looks as well? Nothing else makes sense bc you can't explain how else shed know how people look that are dead she's never met!

[–] richard-III 11 years ago

Well, there was a reason why Miles was sent away from school. And they did not want him back ever again!

This has nothing to do with miss Giddens, who's obviously going hysterical. But as she first saw the male ghost on the tower - before seeing a photograph of Quint - I find it possible that there were ghosts. And even if we only see them through the mind of miss Giddens, boy their moments are creepy.

If I recall well, it was at co-screenwriter Truman Capote's suggestion that the original Henry James ghost story was freudianised, psychologized, so that one could never be sure if the ghosts are real or only in the mind of the governess. Both options, and even the ambiguity between them, make this film one of the creepiest I've ever seen.

"I don't discriminate between entertainment
and arthouse. A film is a goddam film."

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] astreetcarnamednovocaine 11 years ago

*Spoilers*
I just watched the film a second time and I think the ghosts are real because:

- the first time Flora hums her song at the bedroom window (when Miles is still in school) she looks down to the garden and clearly smiles at someone
- when the kids ask the governess how small her house was, Miles says something like "too small to have secrets?" and Flora gives him a dirty look as if to say "don't give our secret away!"
- when the governess sees the sobbing ghost in the school room she does find a tear on the desk...

Also, before the governess even arrives at the mansion, meets the childen or even hears the stories about Quint and Miss Jessel, she hears the ghost of miss Jessel calling Flora in the garden. Later she spots Quint's ghost on top of the tower, and she doesn't even know of his existence yet. Then she sees Miss Jessel's ghost crossing the hall, and she's still unaware of her relationship with Quint and of her violent death (she barely knows who she is, she just knows she's dead because the uncle briefly mentions her during the interview).

Well, I guess they could all be imagining things, but that tear on the desk really troubles me...Anyway, I have a question: why does Miles die? I was quite puzzled by that. Since I believe the ghosts are real, I think that Quint's ghost gets to him; perhaps he snaps his neck, and Miles dies just like the pigeon he was hiding under his pillow.
I'm really interested in the point of view of the 'skeptics'.

Again, it's just what I think. It's an amazing film and it's great that it still inspires so much debate 50 years after its release! I watched this film twice in three days. It's fascinating.

[–] Boats_Gilhooley 11 years ago

sounds like postmodern psychobabble to me....read the book, it's about ghosts.

Anything played wrong twice in a row is the beginning of an arrangement. FZ

[–] benighted2005 9 years ago

Try ingratiating yourself into something rather than being the guy to label and say stuff like read the book.

Come in she said I'll give you shelter from the storm.

[–] DrZaat 8 years ago

"Ingratiate." I do not think it means what you think it means.

[–] plasmic_steve 8 years ago

Exactly what I was thinking.

[–] usherman 10 years ago

I believe you made a good point about the vicar. If she was the daughter of a minister and thought the children possessed, you would think she would know to go to the vicar and had the devils cast out but she didn't. It was her own lack of firmness letting the children do what they wanted that drove her mad. Of course any child would take advantage in that situation. Interesting theory.

[–] bluemagicmist 10 years ago

by nutritionist
On second viewing it seems clear that the children's behavior, knowing that they were orphaned, and were sexualized at a young age, and had a governess also die on them, and the gardener die, and were precocious as a result, it is clear that their behavior is understandable. It is clear that Flora expected Miles to get kicked out of school and reunite with her. It is clear that an experienced, stable, insightful, capable governess would have understood them.

Very early on Miss Giddens is hypersensitive to sounds, gets unhinged at the sound of birds, flies and wind and even laughter, when Miles rode the Horse at the beginning and she gets scared and hears birds shriek is the scene where her madness escalates, she cannot sleep well from the beginning, she is constantly frightened, she only sees the face of the man peering in the window after she sees a picture of him in the music box.

It also becomes clear with every scene that Miss Giddens is mentally unstable, as well as repressed, and she becomes increasingly unbalanced as she enters this new environment. Every scene shows how inappropriate her reactions to her surroundings, events, and the children are. Yet, All of the movie is from her point of view, so you are drawn to see it from her perspective, BUT if you look closely, you can see that the children's behavior is understandable but her reactions and thoughts and behavior is unhinged. The HOUSEKEEPER is a key figure because she keeps giving her information about Qint and the previous governess that fuels her fears and imagination. Her psychological makeup combined with the fact that the children are NOT innocent in the least drive her further and further over the edge of insanity. She needs them to be innocent as she has a compulsion to be herself and have all children be, and when they are not it feeds her madness

It is Miss Giddens who is the Child innocent- her psyche has become stuck in that mode due to her childhood where her father, a preacher demanded silence, as she told Flora. Indeed when Miles asks about the home she came from, she does not refer to her home she just left as an adult, but rather her childhood home. if you view the movie a second time you seeing Miss Giddens as the mad child innocent and the children as precocious victims of their horrid childhood.

If she had only gone to the uncle as she initially planned to tell him everything, then she would have been fired and all would have been well. But then she said they were possessed and "couldn't be let out of her sight" and only told the housekeeper, who, because of her position and station couldn't argue with Miss Giddens. The fact that she did not go to the vicor or the Uncle shows she was mad.

I do not believe there are any ghosts at all.

I am of the same thinking, there are no ghosts. The housekeeper has lived there all that time and had never encountered ghosts, she didn't appear to be frighten of anything, neither were the children.
Miss Giddens was repulsed by the bug crawling out of the child statue, she hates 'nasty' things, 'nasty' thoughts etc. She was spooked before she even arrived at the house, she was so overwhelmed by its enormity, she convinced herself it must be haunted.
She transferred her imaginings to Miles which is called [folie à deux, a madness shared by two or shared psychosis, is a psychiatric syndrome in which symptoms of a delusional belief are transmitted from one individual to another.

This syndrome is most commonly diagnosed when the two or more individuals concerned live in proximity and may be socially or physically isolated and have little interaction with other people.

Various sub-classifications of folie à deux have been proposed to describe how the delusional belief comes to be held by more than one person.

Folie imposée is where a dominant person (known as the 'primary', 'inducer' or 'principal') initially forms a delusional belief during a psychotic episode and imposes it on another person or persons (known as the 'secondary', 'acceptor' or 'associate') with the assumption that the secondary person might not have become deluded if left to his or her own devices. ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux

[–] eweland 10 years ago

If YOU see a ghost, but someone near you doesn't - does that mean there is no ghost?

I think Henry James was haunted by ghosts his entire life.
And I think the ghosts in this film were meant to be real.

There's too many coincidences of the children acting NOT like children - as if something else was influencing their behavior. Ghosts. Possession.

It's far too easy to say that "an individual is crazy" when strange things happen. We've been trained to think like that, after viewing so many films. But this was written before many of them ever came into being. There might be more going on than you realize.

The Kubrick film IS far superior, in every way.