Of course it's also a matter of personal preference . I actually said " Season 5 is my least favourite " not "Season 5 was the worst" .
By the way :
But , I fear you have tended to take that knowledge and , at least here and there , engage in what amounts to nitpicking
When I explained why I don't like most of the episodes from this season I don't think I just splitted hairs : I said I think that most of these shows were done in quite a superficial way being overloaded with unusual elements that didn't receive an original development and an interesting reading cause the staff of writers wasn't good enough to do it . Thay were just put in the mix to create an external veneer which would have given the illusion that the episode contained something really genial and original when actually the screenplay was insubstantial , monotonous and boring .
So I think I never concentrated on minor flaws .
Seriously , do you think an episode like "The Fear Merchants" was a good example of how a classic theme should be handled ? Every episode of any average cartoon show has a better episode on the " phobias" subject .
How about "See-Through-Man ?" The script has more holes than a colander .
But if you were referring to other points of my posts when you said I was "nitpicking" tell me .
I mean , really . Isn't this a bit over the top ?
That's what I think , though . Personally I believe that the show was much more original
before becoming a world sensation . When the only risk was to disappoint the english audience Brian proved that he could be a bit more fearless , but when "the Avengers " conquered America he thought that there was too much money at stake to stay the old way . The US audience had just seen a small part of the 4th season and was probably quite stunned cause the show wasn't quite like anything was aired on their television before , so Clemens obviously took benefit from that by putting here and there as many strange new elements as possible supposing that these alone would have been enough to made it for the viewers and without caring anymore about the other more important elements . I mean sometimes the preliminary remarks for some episodes could have been good but their execution didn't live up to these them . Clemens apparently thought that all was needed to do was coming up with a bizarre concept and then the episode would have been made by itself , without other ideas , without directors , without writers , without dialogues and without characters . I mean , how difficult it was to write the screenplays for the Avengers in colour ? The plots aren't complex at all , the narrative structure is always the same , the characters' psychology is pared to the bone . Also , too many recurring narrative sequences affected in a negative way the
Post-Cathy Avengers : the final scene featuring every kind of vehicle in the Peel b/w era or the collector cars in the coloured one , the champagne-themed gags of the King era , "Mrs.Peel we're needed" ( yawn ) , Mother's new base , the informer who gets killed in the middle of the episode , often a frivolous villain doing a painful monologue in which he reveals his ambitions ( this consequently involved that an usually very good actor was forced to tragically overact , the most infamous case probably being Michael Gough in "The Correct Way To Kill" ) etc . That made the structure of every story obvious and cancelled the unpredictable element that made the Cathy Gale episodes so unique and always able to surprise viewers with unexpected and courageous new solutions . Even Honor said that one of the reasons the post-Cathy Gale episodes are so mediocre is that there are too many gimmicks . And she's absolutely right , as usual .
The mix changed , but it was not wholly transformed .
That’s exactly what I already tried to say ! For the last time my problem wasn’t the fantastic element in itself , it was the bad way it was handled when an episode was put in the hands of the wrong writer .
Personally taking a look at some stories of that kind which appeared in season 4 I must say that "The Hour That Never Was" was an acceptable episode . I quite liked it. Well , actually I don't exactly LIKE any of the Post-Cathy Gale episodes with the exception ( mainly affective ) of "Death At Bargain Prices" but I reckon that "The Hour That Never Was" could have been viewed once .
On the other hand I really hated "The Cybernauts" and "Man Eater of Surrey Green" . The last one was in my opinion one of the worst episodes ever , it really wasn't the slightest bit innovative but just reactionary and conservative , quite in the style of those many tedious and obscurantist Z-movies made in the decade before the moon landing , with the exploration of the cosmos seen more like a threat than like a conquest . And so we reach the solution of the dilemma : "the Hour That Never Was" had Roger Marshall's screenplay when the other two bombs I mentioned were written by Philip Levene . I'm sure that Marshall could have created some really good surreal stories for Season 5 had been stayed on Clemens' staff . Levene was such a disgrace . Roger on the other hand isn't a complete idiot , even if you could think otherwise after watching "The Hello-Goodbye" .
others and my previous post have I think already addressed why this should not be viewed too harshly . Suffice to say it did not overmuch contaminate the end result
Listen , some storylines were overused to death .I think that Malcolm Hulke and James Mitchell couldn't have possibly imagined that when they respectively wrote "The Undertakers" and "Man with Two Shadows" they were providing material for nearly 15 years .
The first of these two episodes was really an unsurpassable model of dark irony and a little homage to the theatre of the absurd , with people moving with a total naturalness between real and presumed deaths or disappearances and reappearances , criminal practices and mere routine : the estranging effect created by this episode sure wasn’t seen again all the times this story’s genial ideas were borrowed or readapted . All the later appearances of murder/disappearance agencies ran like a normal business , living people brought away in coffins or villains faking their deaths in the first scene to later reemerge from their graves pointed at this episode and really let me cold cause all the shock/surprise effect was inevitably gone .
Now I think that after “Man with Two Shadows” ( probably the best Avengers episode ever ) the doppelgaenger theme should have not been used again cause it had been handled in such a clever way in this occasion that any other episode attempting to make a variation on it would have inevitably been a letdown , but I really couldn’t have imagined that they would have managed to kill the charm of this mysterious element the way they did . The original Cathy Gale episode represented the most unique situation the Avengers had ever met and a sort of ultimate challenge for them . Later , every villain/organization seemed able to create dead ringers by making everyone look exactly like everyone , by brain switching etc ..
It’s unconceivable that by the time he was writing the “New Avengers” Clemens was still making a living on these two episodes’ ideas ( well , his "Faces" script was a plagiarism of an episode from "The Champions" , actually ) And I just made two important examples .
You just said that you discussed with other users about the matter of the re-used plots and that it doesn’t create a problem to you . You didn’t establish an universal rule that everyone should remember when it comes to reviewing this show . That’s just your opinion . Mine is very different , especially about the quality of the end results .
It is hardly original for me that her work in this series was iconic , transformative
She had things easy . All the elements that became her credentials and made her win the public's favour were taken from her much superior predecessor .
and hugely influential
Ok , her character had her influence ( again it was a reflection of the Cathy Gale formula ) but she’s NOT , as some people claim , the one who helped the rising cause of feminism the most , you can’t steal even that merit from Honor . It was Cathy who came to life the same time women started to fight for equality and equal pay in the work place and even if seasons 2 and 3 weren’t released in the US back then her influence had still spread beyond the seas . The inspiration for titular action heroine of the American spy show “Honey West” - which came on the US small screen before the Rigg Avengers - came indeed from Cathy as the producers happened to see the Avengers on British television and realized that it was time to introduce to the American audience this new kind of woman . Barbara Bain , Barbara Feldon and Stefanie Powers could also fight in their respective spy shows when the situation required it . "Man From U.N.C.L.E" had already featured some kick-ass females already in the 64-65 season ( watch "Girls of Nazarone Affair" ).
So it's not exactly world audiencies weren't already witnessing to the growth of the female power phenomenon : it was clearly on its way to become popular culture soon , Mrs.Peel or not Mrs.Peel . After all Losey’s “Modesty Blaise” came to America just about the same time as the Rigg Avengers did .
Diana was also very lucky that Honey West happened to be such a mediocre show , I mean if a tv-series like that ( where the episodes basically didn't even have a plot ) was the closest thing American television had to "the Avengers" and its quality level was the usual standard on which that type of action series were judged it’s obvious that all the flaws in the screenplays of "the Avengers in color" came unnoticed and the stories gained the reputation of having deep themes and interesting structures . Even if "Honey West" lasted a bit longer Diana would have remained american tv's official action heroine as "the Avengers" had easily become the thing of the moment also due to the fact the people didn't know the greater things that had happened in the show from 1962 to 1964 . At least in Britain when on the other hand they knew those things not anyone agreed to play Clemens' game . The reviews for the Emma Peel Avengers were actually quite mixed and during its run the show didn't win any other major award in Britain . Patrick pointed out in numerous occasions that he felt quite sorry the Variety Club didn't give anymore to the show the big push it gave in 1963 when it named Honor and him Best TV Actress/Actor .
She mixed together the beautiful , the self confident , the intelligent , the humorous , the equal of anyone , with a phisycal effectiveness
Nothing that Honor hadn’t already done MUCH better , especially about the self confidence part .
When in Cathy’s case this sharp character trait was just part of her queen stature , in Mrs.Peel’s it was often annoying and unjustified . It became old and boring quite soon see Emma coming out with an unfunny joke or a “he really wanted it” smile so many times after beating an opponent , especially in all those occasions in which she had been nearly defeated or killed . Cathy used to take down her challengers much more easily but she never wasted her ( and our ) time with further displays of power .
and don’t forget courage
To her it wasn’t required a grain of the courage required to Honor !
The character of Mrs.Peel appears more fully formed in the 5th season
One thing for sure when she started the show Diana was still quite girlish when a pair of years later both her personal charm and her screen presence were a bit stronger ( even if she was even more annoying ) .
But overall I still find her quite “green” in those years . That’s another reason I was never a big Emma Peel enthusiast , cause Diana back then wasn’t a first lady in the full splendour of her beauty and at the peak of her acting maturity like Honor already was . Not that even at the peak of her powers Rigg does it for me , actually .
Apart from that , I don’t see any possible sign of growth in Mrs.Peel from Season Four to Five . I don’t think she had become a well-rounded , complex character by that time , she was still extremely one-sided and undeveloped .
And Macnee was just more effective playing opposite her
What do you mean by this , that the Macnee/Rigg team was better integrated in Season 5 than in Season 4 or that Patrick did a better job when paired with Diana rather than his other partners ?
Personally I believe his best acting moments were in seasons 2 and 3 but again there was much more acting required back then cause the screenplays wanted Steed to show sometimes some new , hidden and not necessarily positive sides when by Season 4 he started to become a quite one-note character . But I must admit that from the moment he was paired with Rigg he usually had more space and more possibilities to stand out ( or try to ) . Now I think Patrick is a decent guy and that he was solid as Steed at the beginning of the show , but that doesn't change that Honor always overshadowed him and he actually admitted it too.
I have recently purchased “The Avengers : The Inside Story” , co-authored by Macnee and Dave Rogers . Patrick openly said that he perfectly knew that during the second and third year of the show Honor was the indisputable star and that back then he regularly felt that he was always number two . And he also added that , even if between Honor and him a formidable friendship that lasted even after she left the show ( Peter Hammond coined the nickname “Pat’n Honor” for them )was born he deeply felt a bit of jealousy for her ... especially considering that back then every day at least a newspaper talked about Honor/Cathy when that was not his case . He says that on the other hand when he worked with Diana he felt they were equals .
the insertion of the Mother character , while ably played at times , was done quite in recognition that the dual leads of Steed and Mrs.Peel could not merely continue by replacing Peel with King , but needed something else. Unfortunately the whole Mother element was too cute and cloying by half , and is almost embarassing on viewing today
If Mother had been supposed just to give Steed his new mission at the beginning of every episode that could have been OK . After all the new base sequence was just an alternative to the boring "Mrs.Peel we're needed" thing .
But giving him a very crucial role in too many episodes sure badly affected the show . Now I wonder if things would have gone the same way if a more experienced actress had been cast as Tara . Mother would have still been introduced , I think , as a recurring american criticism to the show was the fact it was very unclear what Steed's job was and who was his superior ( US audencies hadn't met One-Ten and Quilpie ) . But I think he could have been less present if Clemens & co hadn't made Linda Thorson the show's new female lead , getting consequently forced to look for all the help they could have possibly got because people didn't care for her . Pity because as I already said Tara King could have been an interesting character as she had originally been conceived and before being adapted to Linda's age and lack of experience .
In short , I hardly think the fifth was the worst season . Some of the shows in it are imo among the very best in the entire series run
Which season 5 episodes , for curiosity , you consider to be among the best in the entire series run ?
By the way I just noticed that a lot of people when talking about this show seem to include both the "New Avengers" seasons . In this case I must say that as much as I detest Season 5 I still find it slightly better than both seasons of the "New Avengers" .
reply
share
kenny-164
17 years ago
Edna,
I very much appreciate how much you care about this show, and how much you put into your posts.
But I also find you are in effect repeating points you have already made. About many of them we will have to disagree and leave it at that.
For one example, you have harped on the sci fi fantasy element's presence in season five. There were of course such elements in other years, including earlier ones. Yes, there were more shows that did in year five, but I do not share the condemnation you make of it, with you in effect feeling the quantitative element was so significant as to make for a wholly qualitative difference. So much so that you paint with a broad brush, condemning the entire season with such condemnation. Clearly there were shows in that season that had no sci fi elements, yet down the drain they go with the others.
I think there was a practical problem the producers and writers faced when the show went more international, but I am not one personally invested in the early years, and do not share the objections of ones who are. Specifically there were story lines that were found in earlier seasons, even Diana Rigg's prior seasons, that they must have felt were so good that they should be used for a broader audience who had never seen those earlier shows. I am more forgiving than you for their choice in that regard.
The concept of the Avengers made the availability of script ideas limited, in my mind. Being made during the Cold War, about agents who can broadly be termted working on the home front in counter insurgency, in fact using local location shoots and studios only (I don't believe the series has a single shot taken outside of England), all were self limiting in terms of story lines and treatments available to the writers. They could only do so many stories with obviously Soviet agents as the antagonists, but could not go too far from the basic role, their jobs, of working in counter insurgency.
Given those built in limitations, I think they actually did quite a good job of creating a range of stories, admittedly repeating some themes here and there.
But that, once again, is merely my opinion, as I recognize.
reply
share
MrEdnablackadder
17 years ago
Kenny ,
I like I can always have a civil , reasonable conversation with you .
You pointed out that about many points we simply disagree so we should just leave it that way and it sounds fine to me .
By the way when I talk about " bizarre elements " I don't mean necessarily in a science-fiction sense .
I mean , take " You have just been murdered " for example . The first scene with the killer shooting the millionaire with the empty gun and the subsequent appearance of the first " You have .." note was kinda bizarre . But the episode in itself is incredibly banal and boring . It was just a long series of murder attempts ( alternated with real assassination ) ; the screenplay just used the episode's original idea to mask an obvious plot about rich men fearing for their lives with the bad guys trying to get their money and the two heroes just being there to protect them . And the problem of episodes like these is that with an excessive amount of ( bad ) action the space for acting , good dialogues and real humour is inexistant.
What you say about re-using the good storylines from the b/w seasons can be right if you just consider the broader audience's point of view , but Clemens should have also thought about the UK viewers which had already seen so many of those things . However even if you take Season 5 alone , it's easily noticeable that it's not exactly that the writers never repeated themselves , the doppelgaenger theme for example is used at least 3 times.
You said that they could only do so many stories with the Soviet agents as the villains . I beg to differ . The cold war had been on for the entire series' run but in the Cathy Gale era there were hardly any episodes ofthat kind . I think that the Avengers' foes in Seasons 2 and 3 were much more picturesque and memorable cause they weren't here to represent any nation's goals but often were quite surreal portraits of chaos agents . In Season 5 on the other hand they just had to do the most obvious thing to be sure to succeed with the broader audience , to pick the official "enemies" of the moment and make them the villains in so many episodes , being regularly portrayed in the most superficial manner (in style with the way communism was perceived back then , with all the focus on its wrong execution and never on its right ideology ) . None of the Soviets portrayed in the show was a character , they were all just parodies . Redoing "The Charmers" in Cold War sauce as "The Correct Way to Kill" was a failure , all the eccentricity of the original episodes was gone . The anarchic Keller ( even if he worked with the Soviets ) played by Warren Mitchell was a genial character when the grotesque Nutski played by Michael Gough was just the usual annoying stereotype of a blood-thirsty megalomaniac wanna-be dictator . And Anna Quayle's cold and unfeminine Olga , even being on the Avenger's side , was clearly a caricature .
A few years before the show was much more courageous as the writers used to go much further in making fun of their own nation's costumes , amplifying some of their social plagues in order to create original set-ups for stories and basing villainous figures on some of their common human types . From Season 4 onward the only thing which was getting attacked over and over was the British school system .
Now I think I have widely expressed my opinion about Philip Levene's writing style and considering that he wrote 12 episodes of season 5 out of 24 for me , exactly half of the season in this way goes , to quote yourself , down the drain ( and he didn't just write sci-fi stories ) . Going on by eliminating obviously the Cathy Gale episodes'remakes ( I already explained why I couldn't like those ) , a few other episodes for their monotonous plots filled with terrible action sequences and empty of ideas .. we are basically eliminating them all . The only eps from this season I can moderately suffer are "The Superlative Seven" , "Dead Man's Treasure" and "Murdesville " .
reply
share